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#7794 - 05/16/10 07:45 PM Trivia #33
Pilawt Offline
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Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 1889
Loc: AZ
Does anyone remember this nifty little twin? It's not easy to see in the photo, but the power plants are installed as pushers. The airplane was offered with either 125-hp or 145-hp engines. Years later this design was to have been the basis of a radical STOL aircraft.

_________________________
Jeff Jacobs
C-172N-180
KGYR / Phoenix, AZ

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#7796 - 05/16/10 09:26 PM Re: Trivia #33 [Re: Pilawt]
Ward Holbrook Offline
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Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 2436
Loc: Kaysville, Utah
That looks suspiciously like a Custer Channel Wing - minus the channels - from just down the road from me in Oxnard CA.

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#7798 - 05/16/10 09:39 PM Re: Trivia #33 [Re: Ward Holbrook]
Pilawt Offline
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Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 1889
Loc: AZ
Good eye ...

That is the radical STOL derivative I mentioned. Willard Custer used the fuselage and tail of this existing design for his Channel Wing (below).



But what was the original? (By the way, with regard to the photo in the original post: I was cleaning out some old scrapbooks and found that snapshot I had taken at Van Nuys CA in 1963!)
_________________________
Jeff Jacobs
C-172N-180
KGYR / Phoenix, AZ

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#7799 - 05/16/10 09:43 PM Re: Trivia #33 [Re: Ward Holbrook]
Ward Holbrook Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 2436
Loc: Kaysville, Utah
Here are some more real oddball twins...


Who could have thought up this - a Twin Ercoupe



Twin Super Cubs???

We've all heard of Twin Bonanzas, this isn't one. What's it called?


How about a Twin Mooney?




Imagine if this twin engine Piper Tri-Pacer would have cought on. What would Cessna's Twin 172 have looked like?



Living proof that aircraft design has always been "the survival of the fittest". No wonder the Cessna 170/172 has been around so long - 60+ years.

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#7800 - 05/16/10 10:00 PM Re: Trivia #33 [Re: Ward Holbrook]
Pilawt Offline
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Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 1889
Loc: AZ
The "Twin Ercoupe" and "Twin Cub" would be nice if you had to carry passengers you'd rather not associate with -- or you just wanted to pretend you were flying a P-82 Twin Mustang! grin

Interesting how the engines and props of the "Twin Tri-Pacer" and "Twin Cub" are staggered fore and aft. Not much asymmetric thrust if you lose one, but I bet it compromises the efficiency of the rearmost prop. It's tough to make a Tri-Pacer homelier than it was as originally designed, but it looks like Piper found a way! blush

And I've always thought all Mooneys were pretty airplanes ... until I saw that twin. sick It was called the "Mark 22", the name they re-used for the ill-starred pressurized "Mustang" a few years later.
_________________________
Jeff Jacobs
C-172N-180
KGYR / Phoenix, AZ

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#7801 - 05/16/10 10:02 PM Re: Trivia #33 [Re: Pilawt]
Ward Holbrook Offline
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Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 2436
Loc: Kaysville, Utah
Originally Posted By: Pilawt
Good eye ...

That is the radical STOL derivative I mentioned. Willard Custer used the fuselage and tail of this existing design for his Channel Wing (below).



But what was the original? (By the way, with regard to the photo in the original post: I was cleaning out some old scrapbooks and found that snapshot I had taken at Van Nuys CA in 1963!)
I have no idea.

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#7807 - 05/16/10 11:52 PM Re: Trivia #33 [Re: Ward Holbrook]
RodneyHooverCFI Offline
The Cessna Sensei
Gold Pilot

Registered: 02/16/10
Posts: 1646
Loc: Pasadena, MD
You guys come up with some strange airplanes, that's for sure! Twin 'Coupe is kinda interesting. The twin Tri-Pacer is ridiculously ugly!
_________________________
Flight Instructor- ASEL and Instrument Airplane
Commercial Pilot with Instrument Rating- ASEL & AMEL
Assistant Chief Instructor at W00, Freeway Aviation.
States I've flown to-

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#7817 - 05/17/10 08:47 AM Re: Trivia #33 [Re: RodneyHooverCFI]
britishpilot Offline
Safety Pilot

Registered: 05/17/10
Posts: 90
Loc: UK
Baumann Brigadier, I think,

Ron

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#7832 - 05/17/10 04:09 PM Re: Trivia #33 [Re: britishpilot]
Pilawt Offline
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Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 1889
Loc: AZ
Welcome aboard, Britishpilot. You indeed think correctly -- it is the Baumann Brigadier.

This airplane almost became the Piper PA-21. Piper purchased the prototype and drawings and intended to reconfigure the Brigadier with a conventional tractor-type engine installation. The project was abandoned, though, when the PA-23 Apache was developed.

Some comments from Jack Baumann's cousin Bill, who participated in the airplane's design: http://www.aviastar.org/air/usa/baumann_brigadier-250.php
_________________________
Jeff Jacobs
C-172N-180
KGYR / Phoenix, AZ

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#7834 - 05/17/10 04:12 PM Re: Trivia #33 [Re: Ward Holbrook]
Pilawt Offline
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Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 1889
Loc: AZ
The twin-engine conversion of the V-tail Bonanza (a model C35, if I recall) was the Bay Aviation Services Super-V.
_________________________
Jeff Jacobs
C-172N-180
KGYR / Phoenix, AZ

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#7844 - 05/17/10 07:19 PM Re: Trivia #33 [Re: Pilawt]
Ward Holbrook Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 2436
Loc: Kaysville, Utah
We have a winner. You've got to wonder how effective those ruddervators were during engine-out operations.

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#7847 - 05/17/10 07:29 PM Re: Trivia #33 [Re: Pilawt]
Ward Holbrook Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 2436
Loc: Kaysville, Utah
Originally Posted By: Pilawt
Welcome aboard, Britishpilot. You indeed think correctly -- it is the Baumann Brigadier.

This airplane almost became the Piper PA-21. Piper purchased the prototype and drawings and intended to reconfigure the Brigadier with a conventional tractor-type engine installation. The project was abandoned, though, when the PA-23 Apache was developed.

Some comments from Jack Baumann's cousin Bill, who participated in the airplane's design: http://www.aviastar.org/air/usa/baumann_brigadier-250.php

The PA-23 Apache was originally known as the Twin Stinson.

Piper got the rights to it after they bought out the Stinson line. (The last of the Stinson 108 Station Wagons were sold as Pipers.)

Piper took the twin-tailed design, modified the tail, upped the original 125hp engines progressively to 150hp and made a few other changes and came up with the PA-23 Apache

The Apache underwent the inevitable growth in horsepower from 150 to 235 and got heavier and stretched a little here and there and ended up as the 250hp PA-23 Aztec.


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#7856 - 05/17/10 10:04 PM Re: Trivia #33 [Re: Ward Holbrook]
Pilawt Offline
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Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 1889
Loc: AZ
I got my multi in a '61 Apache G 160 -- the one below, as a matter of fact.



It was one of Piper's brochure airplanes in 1961, but its original red factory paint was dull and faded by the time I got to it ten years later. We called it the "Apathy" in honor of its indifferent performance. If handled very nicely, though, not truck-like as with the Turbo Aztec I also flew.
_________________________
Jeff Jacobs
C-172N-180
KGYR / Phoenix, AZ

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#7857 - 05/17/10 10:15 PM Re: Trivia #33 [Re: Pilawt]
RodneyHooverCFI Offline
The Cessna Sensei
Gold Pilot

Registered: 02/16/10
Posts: 1646
Loc: Pasadena, MD
Originally Posted By: Ward Holbrook
You've got to wonder how effective those ruddervators were during engine-out operations.


No joke there! Vmc is probably a wee bit closer to Vne than most twins...

Didn't know the Apache started out with a twin tail. Think they look better than a single tail anyhow, wish more planes had that.
_________________________
Flight Instructor- ASEL and Instrument Airplane
Commercial Pilot with Instrument Rating- ASEL & AMEL
Assistant Chief Instructor at W00, Freeway Aviation.
States I've flown to-

Airport list map:
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#7864 - 05/17/10 10:34 PM Re: Trivia #33 [Re: Ward Holbrook]
Pilawt Offline
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Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 1889
Loc: AZ
Originally Posted By: Ward Holbrook
The Apache underwent the inevitable growth in horsepower from 150 to 235 and got heavier and stretched a little here and there and ended up as the 250hp PA-23 Aztec.
Actually the 250-hp (per side) Aztec came out a couple of years before the 235-hp Apache. Both were marketed as part of the PA-23 series, but Piper's internal recordkeeping logged them as PA-27.
_________________________
Jeff Jacobs
C-172N-180
KGYR / Phoenix, AZ

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#7866 - 05/17/10 10:44 PM Re: Trivia #33 [Re: RodneyHooverCFI]
Pilawt Offline
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Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 1889
Loc: AZ
Originally Posted By: RodneyHooverCFI
Didn't know the Apache started out with a twin tail. Think they look better than a single tail anyhow


The rounded Apache tail was derived from the experimental single-engine PA-6 prototype:

_________________________
Jeff Jacobs
C-172N-180
KGYR / Phoenix, AZ

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#7867 - 05/17/10 10:47 PM Re: Trivia #33 [Re: Pilawt]
Ward Holbrook Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 2436
Loc: Kaysville, Utah
It was known as the Apache 235 and was sold side-by-side with essentially the same airplane with 250hp/side which was the short-nosed Aztec. I understand that a lot of those 235 hp Apaches have been converted to 250 hp. I got my AMEL rating in a 1962 B model. It was like this one, only a few serial numbers later. I understand that the one I flew is still flying down in Ft. Lauderdale.

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#7869 - 05/17/10 11:09 PM Re: Trivia #33 [Re: Ward Holbrook]
RodneyHooverCFI Offline
The Cessna Sensei
Gold Pilot

Registered: 02/16/10
Posts: 1646
Loc: Pasadena, MD
PA-6 sure looks a lot like a Navion.
_________________________
Flight Instructor- ASEL and Instrument Airplane
Commercial Pilot with Instrument Rating- ASEL & AMEL
Assistant Chief Instructor at W00, Freeway Aviation.
States I've flown to-

Airport list map:
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#7895 - 05/18/10 02:11 PM Re: Trivia #33 [Re: RodneyHooverCFI]
TaylorSp Offline
Pilot in Command

Registered: 03/03/10
Posts: 313
Loc: Salina, KS
My dad owned a Piper Apache 150hp/ per side, for several years when he was doing a lot of flight instruction.
_________________________
1974 Cessna 172M
N13540
CFII/ Comm. Multi.

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#16843 - 12/20/10 02:03 AM Re: Trivia #33 [Re: TaylorSp]
EdW Offline
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Registered: 11/21/10
Posts: 1637
Loc: Just east of Graceland
Jeff, a question...

You called your Apache, N4374P, a 1961. I own N4383P, and it's a 1960 PA-23-160. S/N 23-1893. Your airplane was also the centerfold of the 1960 brochure. Could you have actually had a '60?

By the way, I'm really enjoying your Trivia stuff. As you can see, I'm adding to it (but not as well as you).

Ed
_________________________
OK, I got my drone license...when does the season open, and what's the bag limit?

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#16859 - 12/20/10 12:29 PM Re: Trivia #33 [Re: EdW]
Pilawt Offline
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Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 1889
Loc: AZ
Originally Posted By: EdW
You called your Apache, N4374P, a 1961. I own N4383P, and it's a 1960 PA-23-160. S/N 23-1893. Your airplane was also the centerfold of the 1960 brochure. Could you have actually had a '60?


Hi Ed!

Since N4374P was a brochure airplane, it's possible that it was built during the 1960 model year, but was the prototype for the next year's modifications and paint job for publicity purposes. (I used to rent N4296J, an '83 Turbo Arrow. It was the first Arrow to have the '84 paint job so it could be used in the '84 brochure.) Sometimes manufacturers will keep a particular airframe as a "mule" and repaint it and dress it up for ads several years in a row.

FAA's registration database lists only the calendar year of manufacture. The "model year" for marketing purposes might be different. As with automobiles, most general aviation manufacturers start a new model year in the late summer or fall of the preceding year. My C172N, for example, is of the 1978 model year but was built during calendar 1977, and that's what shows on the registration.

The 1961 year model Apaches were called "Apache G" and had the paint job in the photo above (all Piper models that year had the same paint scheme, with slight variation). I believe they were also the first Apaches to be built with the third cabin side window that was introduced on the Aztec in 1960. Some earlier Apaches have since had those third windows added as well, so that's not necessarily a spotting feature now.

I think I might have a list of Apache serial numbers by model year, and I'll check that when I get home tonight.

Do you have a scan of any brochure photos of N4374P? I'd love to see them. Regrettably I never got around to taking photos of 74P when I was flying it.
_________________________
Jeff Jacobs
C-172N-180
KGYR / Phoenix, AZ

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#17270 - 12/28/10 04:19 PM Re: Trivia #33 [Re: Pilawt]
EdW Offline
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Registered: 11/21/10
Posts: 1637
Loc: Just east of Graceland
Jeff, finally got around to scanning the photos from my Apache brochure. The centerfold I had to do in two scans. Go here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/50161746@N07/ and download them. For the Apache non-beleivers and nay-sayers, note the pic with five people on board and only one engine making noise.

Ed
_________________________
OK, I got my drone license...when does the season open, and what's the bag limit?

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#17281 - 12/28/10 08:59 PM Re: Trivia #33 [Re: EdW]
Pilawt Offline
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Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 1889
Loc: AZ
Ed, thank you!! These are keepers. The airplane sure didn't look this shiny when I flew it in 1971-72.
_________________________
Jeff Jacobs
C-172N-180
KGYR / Phoenix, AZ

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#17287 - 12/28/10 09:53 PM Re: Trivia #33 [Re: Pilawt]
RickG Online   content
Pilot in Command

Registered: 09/30/10
Posts: 386
Loc: Durham, NC
Small world ... the flight school I fly from recently added a 1960 PA-23 Piper Apache Geronimo (S/N 23-1904) to the flight line. A few pics can be seen at http://www.empire-aviation.com/flight-school/multi-engine-training.html. I have access to many more pics if interested.
_________________________
http://www.lakeridgeaero.com
8NC8 Durham, NC

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#17336 - 12/29/10 04:36 PM Re: Trivia #33 [Re: EdW]
Pilawt Offline
Club Sponsor
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Registered: 02/13/10
Posts: 1889
Loc: AZ
Ed, here's a more recent photo of N4374P. Yuk. sick

http://www.airliners.net/photo/Piper-PA-23-160-Apache/0098070/L/
_________________________
Jeff Jacobs
C-172N-180
KGYR / Phoenix, AZ

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