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#178113 - 03/16/14 02:04 PM Re: Pre-Flight --> Flaps up or Flaps down ????? [Re: Jpod]
Showboatsix Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 12/04/10
Posts: 1816
Loc: KUAO, Aurora, Oregon
Originally Posted By: Jpod
40mph,what is your planes flap ext stall speed?


I have a cheater plane. Sportsman STOL and VG's .
Do not try this with a stock wing.
_________________________

Note: "Speed and 172 are not used in the same sentence!"


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#178117 - 03/16/14 03:52 PM Re: Pre-Flight --> Flaps up or Flaps down ????? [Re: Rusty Rudder]
Ward Holbrook Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 2436
Loc: Kaysville, Utah
For what it's worth, here's my take on it...

Simply go by the what is mentioned in the POH. You'll find the recommended procedures in "Section 4 - Amplified Procedures" in aircraft that have the modern POH or in "Section I - Operating Checklist" in older aircraft.

At the least, you need to comply with what is specified in the flight manual, but remember, there is a difference between an annual inspection and a preflight inspection. smile

There's nothing wrong in doing things during the preflight that aren't called for, but my guess is that most of us wouldn't be able to distinguish between a badly worn/unairworthy flap track and an airworthy one so if you're looking for something, know what you're looking for.

As long as we're talking preflight inspections, just because something is not on the checklist doesn't mean that it doesn't need to be checked during a preflight inspection or on a before takeoff checklist. Many of us have optional equipment such as autopilots, electric trim, etc that have preflight checks that are required prior to flight. These checks typically need to be added to your checklists. You'll need to go through the installed equipment supplements in your aircraft's flight manual to see what additional checks might be required.

Also, in these days of diesel-powered 172s, I'd darn sure know what 100LL mixed with Jet-A looks and smells like in a fuel sampling cup - especially if I was flying one of the diesel powered aircraft. I believe they're going to be more and more common and fueling mistakes will be made.

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#178120 - 03/16/14 04:42 PM Re: Pre-Flight --> Flaps up or Flaps down ????? [Re: Rusty Rudder]
vettdvr Offline
Club Sponsor
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 06/24/10
Posts: 7724
Loc: Slidell La
Well I guess that clears up flaps and slips. Now I know that slip full flaps might nose down or might not,, might be an issue or possibly not. But after all I am still learning. I do know if I am on glide slope I don't have to do much slipping.
_________________________
Vettdvr

Single/Multi/instrument/type/commercial But then I am still learning.

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#178171 - 03/16/14 08:19 PM Re: Pre-Flight --> Flaps up or Flaps down ????? [Re: vettdvr]
Bigdoggh Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 1966
Loc: Georgia
I've slipped with full flaps, no issues
_________________________
George - 1972 C-172L


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#178183 - 03/16/14 10:15 PM Re: Pre-Flight --> Flaps up or Flaps down ????? [Re: Bigdoggh]
OldCrow Offline
Club Sponsor
Gold Pilot

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 1013
Loc: STS, CA, USA
I have slipped with 40 degrees and have the old short dorsal K model and lived to tell the tale. You do get oscillation but a touch of power and it is gone or pull a bit of slip out and it subsides smoothly.
Preflight:
power on check voltage All equipment off -- verify battery is up to the task.
I like to see 12.3 - 12.5. Under 12 and I am wondering if something is on that should not be or if we are down a cell or end of life.
I check fuel and oil first to make sure the truck is coming if we are low on fuel while I complete the preflight. (I always leave it full so just checking to make sure we have no fuel mice or leaks)

Then Walk around - flaps down. need to wiggle the control rod ends on the flaps to make sure they are still free.... and attached.

Clockwise from CoPilot side after oil check .. that catches the prop and important engine part twice ..

I just don't think I could preflight with flaps up My brain would probably explode laugh
_________________________
Another day in paradise
1969 172k AirPlains 180hp

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#178202 - 03/17/14 05:51 AM Re: Pre-Flight --> Flaps up or Flaps down ????? [Re: OldCrow]
Wayne R Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 07/17/12
Posts: 2001
Loc: Central Pennsylvania
I was taught to pre-flight with flaps down. I decided that was an unnecessary check, since I can take of and land without them. Now I pre-flight with flaps up. I will pre-flight them if my destination requires their use. I always check, when flaps are used, that they extend and retract equally.

I have slipped my 172N with flaps at 40 on a number of occasions and have felt the oscillations a couple of times. If the combination is needed I would not hesitate to use it. Although, I would have to say that, most of the time it was used, it was because of poor approach planning on my part. A couple of times it got me in over some tall trees to a short runway.

My POH says "Avoid slips with flaps extended."
_________________________
Wayne

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#178213 - 03/17/14 08:54 AM Re: Pre-Flight --> Flaps up or Flaps down ????? [Re: Wayne R]
Ward Holbrook Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 2436
Loc: Kaysville, Utah
If you find yourself needing to slip with your flaps extended you've really muffed up your approach. Bad things can happen to good people when they try to salvage a muffed up approach. Just saying...

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#178215 - 03/17/14 09:00 AM Re: Pre-Flight --> Flaps up or Flaps down ????? [Re: Ward Holbrook]
oilwell1415 Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 09/20/12
Posts: 1906
Loc: Tulsa, OK
Not necessarily. I can't tell you how many times I've been told by the tower to keep my speed up on downwind and then they ask me to do a short approach. It isn't ideal, and you can always say "unable", but if you are able and comfortable with it, why not do it? It's fun to do those things from time to time just to exercise your airmanship.
_________________________
1947 North American Navion N8747H. It isn't the fastest, doesn't have the biggest payload, burns gas almost as fast as I can pour it in the tank and requires lots of TLC, but it's cool as hell and that's why we play the game.

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#178227 - 03/17/14 10:22 AM Re: Pre-Flight --> Flaps up or Flaps down ????? [Re: oilwell1415]
Ward Holbrook Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 2436
Loc: Kaysville, Utah
Originally Posted By: oilwell1415
Not necessarily. I can't tell you how many times I've been told by the tower to keep my speed up on downwind and then they ask me to do a short approach. It isn't ideal, and you can always say "unable", but if you are able and comfortable with it, why not do it? It's fun to do those things from time to time just to exercise your airmanship.

Excuse me while I put on my CFI hat...
On the flip side of the "airmanship coin" is judgement and judgement enters into the picture at some point. In the early model 172s with 40 degrees of flaps, there's just not a lot of need to slip - those big barn door flaps are so effective. As a CFI, I would tell you that it's up to you whether you slip or use flaps, but it's probably not the best idea to use both. That being said, one size does not fit all. Not all airplanes have that caution in the POH. Some prohibit it, others make no mention of it. You go by what is said in your particular POH. When the POH says things like "avoid", "minimize", "do not..." etc. you should really take them at their word. I learned that lesson the hard way in a glider a few years ago.

Airmanship dictates that you are proficient in slips and every other maneuver and procedure. Judgement dictates that you know when to and when not to.

There, I'll take off the CFI hat. Sorry about the rant.

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#178233 - 03/17/14 11:21 AM Re: Pre-Flight --> Flaps up or Flaps down ????? [Re: Ward Holbrook]
oilwell1415 Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 09/20/12
Posts: 1906
Loc: Tulsa, OK
I don't disagree with that at all. My whole point was that the need to use full flaps and slip is not always due to a muffed approach.


Edited by oilwell1415 (03/17/14 11:22 AM)
_________________________
1947 North American Navion N8747H. It isn't the fastest, doesn't have the biggest payload, burns gas almost as fast as I can pour it in the tank and requires lots of TLC, but it's cool as hell and that's why we play the game.

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#178236 - 03/17/14 11:47 AM Re: Pre-Flight --> Flaps up or Flaps down ????? [Re: oilwell1415]
Ward Holbrook Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 2436
Loc: Kaysville, Utah
Originally Posted By: oilwell1415
I don't disagree with that at all. My whole point was that the need to use full flaps and slip is not always due to a muffed approach.

I know you knew that, but not everyone here has your experience. I just didn't want anyone to come away with the wrong idea.

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#178239 - 03/17/14 12:12 PM Re: Pre-Flight --> Flaps up or Flaps down ????? [Re: Ward Holbrook]
Wayne R Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 07/17/12
Posts: 2001
Loc: Central Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Ward Holbrook
If you find yourself needing to slip with your flaps extended you've really muffed up your approach. Bad things can happen to good people when they try to salvage a muffed up approach. Just saying...


Thanks for the concern, Ward. As Oilwell said, "It's fun to do those things from time to time". I don't do it out of pressure to complete the landing. If it is going to be a struggle, I'll go around.
_________________________
Wayne

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#178326 - 03/18/14 07:25 AM Re: Pre-Flight --> Flaps up or Flaps down ????? [Re: Rusty Rudder]
Glenn Darr Offline
Club Sponsor
Gold Pilot

Registered: 03/01/10
Posts: 1708
Loc: Arizona
quit checking flaps when I bought my first airplane in 1988.
_________________________
Glenn
1969 172K
KAVQ

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#178332 - 03/18/14 07:54 AM Re: Pre-Flight --> Flaps up or Flaps down ????? [Re: oilwell1415]
Jpod Offline
Safety Pilot

Registered: 06/05/11
Posts: 27
Loc: Ny
Guuuuuu

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#178337 - 03/18/14 09:34 AM Re: Pre-Flight --> Flaps up or Flaps down ????? [Re: Jpod]
Birdman Offline
Bronze Pilot

Registered: 07/05/12
Posts: 667
Loc: Woodland, CA, USA
I always put them down for pre-flight and as Old Crow said check the rod end and the flap for a play to make sure they are not binding.

Like others I check the oil, fuel and tires first as these items may need attention more often and adding oil and air won't break the routine of the preflight.

One thing at our airport is they frown on dumping the fuel from checking the tanks and strainer on the ground like I was taught in the old days. Is this common practice everywhere now? At the flight school there is a container to dump it in to. I usually dump it back in the tank if it is clear. I don't like breaking the flow of the pre-flight to walk a distance and dump fuel in the container or even climb back up to put it back in the tank.

Point of reference on using flaps and slipping. I have a 1971 L model and it still has the small dorsal fin. My Owners Manual says "Slips should be avoided with flap settings greater than 30 degrees due to a downward pitch encountered under certain combinations of airspeed, side slip angle, and center of gravity loadings"

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#178343 - 03/18/14 10:31 AM Re: Pre-Flight --> Flaps up or Flaps down ????? [Re: Birdman]
Curious1 Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 03/12/13
Posts: 1409
Loc: Pacific NW, USA
Re fuel... I have a GATS jar that I use to check my fuel for water/grade/contaminants. The little jar hold about 20 oz, or about 2 1/2 cups. About a year or or ago the FAA published a circular advising to take about a cup of fuel from each quick drain after refueling and during pre-flights. If the fuel is clean and the "right stuff" I pour it back in the tanks when I climb up to check fuel cap security and visually confirm what my cockpit gauges say is truthful.

I also check my flaps at every pre-flight. While I've never had a split flap, it's something I'd really prefer to avoid. A little bit of effort before every flight seems like cheap insurance. Especially for an aircraft with electric flaps, curing a spilt flap problem may be very difficult when in the air... Since even the quickest flap retractions are pretty slow.

Having to slip with full flaps seems like a good reason to practice a "go around". I like to combine both "spot" landings and a "stabilized approach" when I'm setting down. An approach that requires a slip + full flaps is hardly "stable".

I'm curious, how many of us on forum actually practice a "go around" maneuver between flight reviews or flight checks? When I fly with passengers comfortable with maneuvers I invite them to call a "go around" if inclined at any time up to wheels down and rollout. I spoke with an experienced MAF pilot a couple of weeks ago. He said landing accidents continue to plague their operations, and that to combat the problem they're teaching their pilots to use a stable approach within 400' AGL, then be spring loaded for the go around... Unless it's a one way strip - in which case they are committed to land and are prepared to either execute an intentional ground loop, excursion, or over run as necessary.


Edited by Curious1 (03/18/14 10:42 AM)
_________________________
"Safety" simply means "the risk is acceptable" - no more, no less.

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#178346 - 03/18/14 10:33 AM Re: Pre-Flight --> Flaps up or Flaps down ????? [Re: Birdman]
XP Driver Offline
Club Sponsor
Gold Pilot

Registered: 01/08/11
Posts: 2407
Loc: Fairfax, Virginia
I am just a sucker for the rules I suppose (isn't there one of the five dangerous attitudes that deals with this?)

My POH lays out what needs to be checked during pre-flight and I do it every time. My POH also says don't slip with more than 10 degrees of flaps, so I don't. Given that I am not a test pilot I figure this is the way to go.
_________________________


Once you go XP you never go back!

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#178351 - 03/18/14 11:06 AM Re: Pre-Flight --> Flaps up or Flaps down ????? [Re: Curious1]
oilwell1415 Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 09/20/12
Posts: 1906
Loc: Tulsa, OK
Originally Posted By: Curious1
I also check my flaps at every pre-flight. While I've never had a split flap, it's something I'd really prefer to avoid. A little bit of effort before every flight seems like cheap insurance. Especially for an aircraft with electric flaps, curing a spilt flap problem may be very difficult when in the air... Since even the quickest flap retractions are pretty slow.


Food for thought....We know our flaps worked correctly on the last flight, we don't know if they'll work correctly on this one so we put them down to check them. If they work fine we go fly, if not we stay on the ground. Whether we check them before flight or not, they are still an electrical device that could completely fail at any given time and we are always assuming that because they worked before they will work again. If you skip checking them during preflight because they worked on the last flight, are you really committing a smaller crime by assuming they will work because they worked during the preflight?

Not disputing what the POH says or what procedures we've all been taught, just throwing out another angle to look at. If I'm not at my home airport and want to go home, I leave them up because I can get home with them stuck up. I can't go home with them stuck down.
_________________________
1947 North American Navion N8747H. It isn't the fastest, doesn't have the biggest payload, burns gas almost as fast as I can pour it in the tank and requires lots of TLC, but it's cool as hell and that's why we play the game.

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#178401 - 03/18/14 07:10 PM Re: Pre-Flight --> Flaps up or Flaps down ????? [Re: oilwell1415]
TexasAviator Offline
Bronze Pilot

Registered: 01/03/11
Posts: 631
Loc: Seguin, Tx
I put mine down to 10 degrees for take-off and hope they will come back up after airborne. Why exercise them un-neccessarily when that just wears them out and could cause earlier failure than would occur normally?

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#178402 - 03/18/14 07:12 PM Re: Pre-Flight --> Flaps up or Flaps down ????? [Re: oilwell1415]
Peedie Montgomery Offline
Platinum Pilot

Registered: 02/06/10
Posts: 3455
Loc: Hickory, NC
Flaps down, slip if needed, slip with flaps if needed, my sq.tail does well either way. Some of the short fields we go to are under 1200 ft., and yes I practice all my emergency procedures at my home field when I don't have anywhere to go, still enjoy doing all of them...fly safe and often
_________________________
Ya'll Fly Safe and Often

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#178615 - 03/19/14 05:09 PM Re: Pre-Flight --> Flaps up or Flaps down ????? [Re: Peedie Montgomery]
Awkward Bird Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 11/20/11
Posts: 1060
Loc: San Jose, CA
I was taught to check flaps during preflight... master on, listen for gyros, flaps full. Then I listen and look. Sluggish flap extension could mean a weak battery. An unusual grinding noise could mean there is something catching on the cables or something wrong with the flap motor. I wiggle the control rods and wiggle the flaps in order to see how much play is in them fully extended. I've found other problems too by inspecting the flaps fully extended in a way you'd never find with the flaps up.

Then when I start up I have an "oil pressure up/flaps up" check. As I see the oil pressure come up I flip up the flaps. I also visually check for the flaps being at the wrong setting several times during taxi and run up.

I am sticking with that routine because I've identified weak batteries more than once. Even more important I found something wrong with the cable system on one plane. I extended the flaps and heard a very strange grinding noise. I retracted the flaps and the noise was different, extended again and heard it again. Had someone put pressure on the flaps to "simulate" wind and the noise was still there. I put the plane away and squawked the problem. Then I helped the A&P figure out what was wrong. It tTurns out the A&P had put in a screw slightly wrong inside the cabin roof trim during a 100 hour and the cable was grinding against the screw. It was the type of noise you never would have heard with the engine on or in flight.
_________________________
"I fly because I wouldn't want to do anything else." ~ A. Cluff
http://www.aoaflight.com/

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#178680 - 03/20/14 06:33 AM Re: Pre-Flight --> Flaps up or Flaps down ????? [Re: Awkward Bird]
vettdvr Offline
Club Sponsor
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 06/24/10
Posts: 7724
Loc: Slidell La
Also check flap track rollers slot. They slow wear and roll over metal at the edge of the flap. Carefully run your finger on the edge of the slot and you will feel the very sharp rolled metal. This happens when the flaps carry too much load. It damages the flap tracks. When you have enough wear the tracks will have to be replaced. (Think $$$$$) There is a gauge that should be used at annual to check the slot width. IF it is too wide the roller could jam and possible cause split flap and/or jammed aileron. Flaps up you can't see this. Also be sure to look at the trailing edge top side of the flap for the rivets on the very edge. Look closely for cracking at the rivets. These are items to check on preflight flaps down. "sometimes I don't do flaps depending on situation." But I frequently check tracks and rivets.


Edited by vettdvr (03/20/14 06:33 AM)
_________________________
Vettdvr

Single/Multi/instrument/type/commercial But then I am still learning.

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#178706 - 03/20/14 09:20 AM Re: Pre-Flight --> Flaps up or Flaps down ????? [Re: Willie]
captaingary Offline
New Member

Registered: 11/02/11
Posts: 4
Loc: Texas
Originally Posted By: Willie
When I started flight training my first walk around was flaps down ( electric flaps )
And I've done it that way since
Got a buddy who has manual flaps and he checks his just prior to taxi, just after the engine is running basically

His is a low wing Muskateer


Hi, Willie. I hope your buddy doesn't leave the cockpit to check the flap hinges!!! I'm sure I must be misunderstanding "...just after the engine is running basically"


Edited by captaingary (03/20/14 10:05 AM)
Edit Reason: clarification
_________________________
My Pursuit In Life Is Happiness...Therefore I Fly

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#178710 - 03/20/14 10:04 AM Re: Pre-Flight --> Flaps up or Flaps down ????? [Re: captaingary]
Willie Offline
Platinum Pilot

Registered: 12/28/10
Posts: 4728
Loc: Ft McMurray Alberta Canada
When I've been with him he'd have to crawl over me ( low wing ,one door)
I guess they're checked only at annual . Most private planes only get between 50 and 100 hours here when used frequently
_________________________
Flying is the 2nd greatest thrill known to man
Landing is 1st

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#184786 - 04/26/14 08:51 PM Re: Pre-Flight --> Flaps up or Flaps down ????? [Re: Rusty Rudder]
N5479R Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 04/13/14
Posts: 2223
Loc: Florida
We made the decision some thirteen years ago when we purchased our 172M that we were not going to run the flaps down for each pre-flight or prior to departure as part of a pre-takeoff checklist. We felt that doing this was effectively doubling the wear and tear on the flap motor and hardware without any significant benefits from a safety perspective. Just because your flaps worked properly during the pre-flight doesn't mean that they are going to work properly the next time you need them. So, our feeling is that we will double the life of the flap system by only operating it when we need it or, of course, for our Annual Inspection and lubrication.

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