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#19652 - 01/16/11 12:24 PM Landing Flaps
wrecksum Offline
SVP Public Relations
Platinum Pilot

Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 2704
Loc: Dominican Republic
I'm not sure if it's my imagination but I was playing about this morning with configuration for landing.

The runway is very long so there's no point in putting down on the numbers so I used one notch of flaps not 20 or full and I'm sure the landing was better.The squeaker came on just as the mains come down and the landing was almost imperceptible.I always use this technique for crosswinds anyway.(I'm a crab and kick flyer) but try to be nice and use full flaps otherwise.
This is an old chestnut I know but always a good talking point.

What's the latest thinking?
_________________________
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#19688 - 01/16/11 08:26 PM Re: Landing Flaps [Re: wrecksum]
Ward Holbrook Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 2436
Loc: Kaysville, Utah
Originally Posted By: wrecksum
What's the latest thinking?

The latest thinking is that you should just do it any way you want because there's nothing that anyone can say to either group ("Normal" landings with full flaps vs. less than full flaps) that will make them change their individual approach. smirk

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#19701 - 01/16/11 09:51 PM Re: Landing Flaps [Re: Ward Holbrook]
Sky King Offline
Second in Command

Registered: 11/23/10
Posts: 111
Loc: X
I prefer full flap landings when cross wind isn't an issue. It keeps me sharp on using minimum runway distances for landing and the plane is plenty slow on touchdown. Then again I was taught that way because my instructor said we'd more readily go to the flaps if we need them.

Besides every now and again...touch and go...I'd forget to raise the flaps on the 150. It made for an interesting take off laugh and took a minute or two to transition from full flaps to no flaps and low altitude while establishing a proper climb....safely

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#19706 - 01/16/11 10:20 PM Re: Landing Flaps [Re: Sky King]
Showboatsix Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 12/04/10
Posts: 1817
Loc: KUAO, Aurora, Oregon
Preferred use is: all, some or none, depending on what the wind is, the temp is, the runway conditions and the density altitude is.
There is no "normal" amount of flaps because each landing is different.
My preferred flaps usage is as follows:
1. At the end of runway (imaginary touchdown point) on downwind 10 degees.
2. 20 degrees on base
3. 30-40 on final depending on what the approach looks like.

With the Sportsman STOL kit installed, at the end of the runway (imaginary touchdown point) on downwind, slow to 80mph, and pull 40 degrees flap, maintain 80 mph, and turn base,beginning of base turn slow to 70mph, as turning base to final slow to 60mph, and on final slow to 40mph, gear touches on the numbers and you never were more than 1/4 mile from the end of the runway the whole time.
Similar to a glider with lift spoilers control the sink rate with speed and energy.
Now this only works like this with my plane and the Sportsman STOL kit, others will vary, and you need to be very familiar with your own plane's slow speed handling characteristics.
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#19723 - 01/17/11 07:08 AM Re: Landing Flaps [Re: Showboatsix]
wrecksum Offline
SVP Public Relations
Platinum Pilot

Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 2704
Loc: Dominican Republic
My plane only goes to 30 flap so the speed differential on touchdown is not that great between no flap and full flap so I'm wondering if the slightly increased airflow gives better response to the rudder and elevator.A squeeze of power sometimes has the same effect.
I'll have to experiment some more methinks. The runway here goes on and on...
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A person without a sense of humour is like a wagon without springs.It's jolted by every pebble in the road.

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www.cessna172club.com

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#19728 - 01/17/11 08:02 AM Re: Landing Flaps [Re: wrecksum]
vettdvr Offline
Club Sponsor
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 06/24/10
Posts: 7724
Loc: Slidell La
I use 20 on downwind, final full and 65knots.

Landing at full flaps with the stall horn begining to squeel gives a very slow touchdown.

When winds are gusty and over 15 knots I use 20% flaps for landing.

The more flaps and slower you land the higher then nose (prop) is from the runway.

But that is my technique.
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Vettdvr

Single/Multi/instrument/type/commercial But then I am still learning.

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#19738 - 01/17/11 09:52 AM Re: Landing Flaps [Re: vettdvr]
wrecksum Offline
SVP Public Relations
Platinum Pilot

Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 2704
Loc: Dominican Republic
Yep. I usually use the same.
I was surprised how nicely she landed with less flap tho'.
Maybe had one of those lucky days!
_________________________
A person without a sense of humour is like a wagon without springs.It's jolted by every pebble in the road.

Cessna 172, C172, C-172, Cessna Skyhawk fan.
www.cessna172club.com

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#19789 - 01/17/11 04:54 PM Re: Landing Flaps [Re: wrecksum]
Nightowl Offline
Club Sponsor/Speed Demon
Gold Pilot

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 1826
Loc: Northwest lower Michigan
I'll generally use 10-20 degrees if crosswind is an issue, and 20-30 degrees (30 is max on our bird) otherwise. Most landing incidents occur during rollout, so the slower your landing speed, the less likely you are to suffer such an incident.

John
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CP-ASEL-IA
'77 C172N, AirPlains 180 hp conversion

Our sigmap has been flown entirely using aircraft with capabilities at or below those of the C-172.


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#19790 - 01/17/11 05:09 PM Re: Landing Flaps [Re: Nightowl]
November X-ray Offline
Club Sponsor
Gold Pilot

Registered: 08/15/10
Posts: 2303
Loc: Brookshire, Texas, USA
No wind or wind straight down the runway - 20 to 40 degrees depending on temperature, density altitude and runway length/conditions. With cross winds - 0 to 10 degrees. I have a Horton STOL kit and can get fairly slow. I just make sure not to use full flaps if you think a go around might be required.
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#19839 - 01/17/11 10:50 PM Re: Landing Flaps [Re: November X-ray]
EasTexSteve Offline
New Member

Registered: 11/09/10
Posts: 13
Loc: NE Texas
I can usually squeak it on with 30 degrees, as long as the wind is straight down the runway. I'm big on cross-control slipping in a crosswind. If it's a strong quartering crosswind, I'll go no flaps, just to minimize the effect of the crosswind. No sense in letting the windward flap catch the crosswind and force you to use more rudder. If it's more of a perpendicular crosswind, I'll use the flaps.
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#19857 - 01/18/11 12:17 AM Re: Landing Flaps [Re: EasTexSteve]
Nightowl Offline
Club Sponsor/Speed Demon
Gold Pilot

Registered: 02/14/10
Posts: 1826
Loc: Northwest lower Michigan
A word to the wise - use NO flaps if you're landing with any amount of ice on the airframe. We lost a C-310 a few years ago when he deployed flaps on final with a load of ice. frown

John
_________________________
CP-ASEL-IA
'77 C172N, AirPlains 180 hp conversion

Our sigmap has been flown entirely using aircraft with capabilities at or below those of the C-172.


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#22224 - 01/31/11 05:36 AM Re: Landing Flaps [Re: Nightowl]
naivo Offline
Safety Pilot

Registered: 02/26/10
Posts: 64
Loc: Antananarivo- Madagascar
I prefer also 20-30 flaps on final because it's more smooth than on full flaps in which you have also to flare a little bit more (it's what I feel). But can someone explain why using less flaps with xwind?vertical rate?

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#22237 - 01/31/11 07:09 AM Re: Landing Flaps [Re: naivo]
November X-ray Offline
Club Sponsor
Gold Pilot

Registered: 08/15/10
Posts: 2303
Loc: Brookshire, Texas, USA
Originally Posted By: naivo
I prefer also 20-30 flaps on final because it's more smooth than on full flaps in which you have also to flare a little bit more (it's what I feel). But can someone explain why using less flaps with xwind?vertical rate?


Because of the tendency for the upwind wing to lift unexpectedly as the downwind side feels less effect due to the fuselage blocking it and as the craft becomes slower it is critical that both wings provide a more equal amount of lift as the control response will be less effective and not using flaps helps maintain equal lift and better control during a crosswind. Of course there are other techniques which I am sure people will address, such as a crabbing technique or a wing low slip or even a weather vane approach.
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www.cessna172club.com

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#22596 - 02/02/11 07:34 PM Re: Landing Flaps [Re: November X-ray]
RodneyHooverCFI Offline
The Cessna Sensei
Gold Pilot

Registered: 02/16/10
Posts: 1646
Loc: Pasadena, MD
I tend to land with no flaps when I'm not training students, unless there is a good crosswind, then I teach them to not use flaps. I just tend to like the way the approach and landing feel without them. While demonstrating a simulated soft-field landing a few days ago with 30* flaps, happened upon one of those perfect landing where you don't feel anything, just hear the wheels start turning.
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#23896 - 02/12/11 09:49 AM Re: Landing Flaps [Re: RodneyHooverCFI]
wrecksum Offline
SVP Public Relations
Platinum Pilot

Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 2704
Loc: Dominican Republic
I just got back from a little joyride so to experiment a bit, this time I used 30 flap,(max on our plane) which worked fine but the actual touchdown was not so gentle as with less flap and I didn't hear the squawker when the wheels touched.

So I reckon I'll stick to one notch of flaps for a long runway and keep full for when I need it.

(Maybe I'm just too chicken to bring the speed down for full flap landings. I like to see something on the dial besides the maker's name!).
_________________________
A person without a sense of humour is like a wagon without springs.It's jolted by every pebble in the road.

Cessna 172, C172, C-172, Cessna Skyhawk fan.
www.cessna172club.com

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#23925 - 02/12/11 01:09 PM Re: Landing Flaps [Re: wrecksum]
Showboatsix Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 12/04/10
Posts: 1817
Loc: KUAO, Aurora, Oregon
Go out and fly extreme slow flight, go up to 3000 and try 0-10-20-30 flaps and fly it as slow as it will go, see what the wing will do in each configuration. Everybody talks about hos fast their plane is, nobody talks about how slow it will fly, and what it's handling characteristics are. Try left & right turns to 30 degrees. Fly it to it's limit, or better yet, learn what your limit is.
_________________________

Note: "Speed and 172 are not used in the same sentence!"


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#23936 - 02/12/11 03:53 PM Re: Landing Flaps [Re: Showboatsix]
wrecksum Offline
SVP Public Relations
Platinum Pilot

Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 2704
Loc: Dominican Republic
That's true.

Haven't tried slow flight in this one yet.Don't know the actual(not book) stall speeds are yet but I was about 45Kts when I touched and she was still wanting to fly some more, even with three heavy guys and half fuel!
I would guess around 40Kts with 30 flap. That just seems sooo slow!

One on my must do list.
_________________________
A person without a sense of humour is like a wagon without springs.It's jolted by every pebble in the road.

Cessna 172, C172, C-172, Cessna Skyhawk fan.
www.cessna172club.com

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#23952 - 02/12/11 07:15 PM Re: Landing Flaps [Re: wrecksum]
Ward Holbrook Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 2436
Loc: Kaysville, Utah
Originally Posted By: wrecksum
That's true.

Haven't tried slow flight in this one yet.Don't know the actual(not book) stall speeds are yet but I was about 45Kts when I touched and she was still wanting to fly some more, even with three heavy guys and half fuel!
I would guess around 40Kts with 30 flap. That just seems sooo slow!

One on my must do list.

Just remember that those are indicated airspeeds and not true airspeeds. There can be a lot of error introduced at the higher angle of attacks. Your POH will give you the corrected values.

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#24067 - 02/13/11 07:28 AM Re: Landing Flaps [Re: Ward Holbrook]
vettdvr Offline
Club Sponsor
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 06/24/10
Posts: 7724
Loc: Slidell La
Also remember if you are wings level and touching slowflight stalls any turn will increase wing load and therefore lead to stall. If you touch rudder this slow you might spin. So consider only doing these straight ahead to get a feel for how heavy the controls/response is.

Don't spin!
_________________________
Vettdvr

Single/Multi/instrument/type/commercial But then I am still learning.

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#24072 - 02/13/11 08:19 AM Re: Landing Flaps [Re: vettdvr]
wrecksum Offline
SVP Public Relations
Platinum Pilot

Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 2704
Loc: Dominican Republic
I did do a bunch of practice back in November in a 172SP so I'll see how this old bird handles it.

I still remember the three rules for flying the DC3:

1. Don't stall
2. Don't stall
3. Don't stall

Good memory eh?
_________________________
A person without a sense of humour is like a wagon without springs.It's jolted by every pebble in the road.

Cessna 172, C172, C-172, Cessna Skyhawk fan.
www.cessna172club.com

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#24201 - 02/13/11 06:41 PM Re: Landing Flaps [Re: wrecksum]
vettdvr Offline
Club Sponsor
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 06/24/10
Posts: 7724
Loc: Slidell La
Originally Posted By: wrecksum
I did do a bunch of practice back in November in a 172SP so I'll see how this old bird handles it.

I still remember the three rules for flying the DC3:

1. Don't stall
2. Don't stall
3. Don't stall

Good memory eh?


Correct

3 rules for C130 E's

Don't vertical fin stall
Don't power on stall
And for peak sakes DON'T spin.

Spinning the herk results in failure of the fuel tank walls due to the centrifugal forces.
The walls are part of the wing structure.
Losing thie bulkheads for wing structure weakens the engine supports
Weak engine supports results in excessive forces from the gyroscopic forces from the prop
which result in engine / air frame separation and this will run your day when all 4 engines depart the failing wing.

So if you are practicing slow flight remember wings level and when you begin to feel a stall, recover immediately. Don't spin.
_________________________
Vettdvr

Single/Multi/instrument/type/commercial But then I am still learning.

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#24209 - 02/13/11 07:43 PM Re: Landing Flaps [Re: vettdvr]
wrecksum Offline
SVP Public Relations
Platinum Pilot

Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 2704
Loc: Dominican Republic
How about that mid gunner guy on a C130 gunship in Africa who managed to shoot the wings off his own plane?

Bet he felt a bit silly!
_________________________
A person without a sense of humour is like a wagon without springs.It's jolted by every pebble in the road.

Cessna 172, C172, C-172, Cessna Skyhawk fan.
www.cessna172club.com

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#24336 - 02/14/11 02:30 PM Re: Landing Flaps [Re: wrecksum]
vpstone Offline
Club Sponsor
Bronze Pilot

Registered: 08/10/10
Posts: 552
Loc: Havre-De-Grace,Md,USA
Oh theres a story here! Come on Wrecksum..spill the beans!
Vp
_________________________
I want to die in my sleep just like my Grandfather did, Not shrieking and screaming like his passengers.

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#24343 - 02/14/11 03:01 PM Re: Landing Flaps [Re: vpstone]
November X-ray Offline
Club Sponsor
Gold Pilot

Registered: 08/15/10
Posts: 2303
Loc: Brookshire, Texas, USA
Here, Here Sire Wrecksum!
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N. X.




www.cessna172club.com

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#24360 - 02/14/11 05:15 PM Re: Landing Flaps [Re: November X-ray]
wrecksum Offline
SVP Public Relations
Platinum Pilot

Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 2704
Loc: Dominican Republic
I only got it third hand so can't write a story on it.!
They did, of course, crash but we heard the crew were saved.
It was during the Mog/Sudan era when the USAF planes came across to Mombasa.They were supposed to clear the guns each day.
It was hushed up very quickly. Wonder why??
_________________________
A person without a sense of humour is like a wagon without springs.It's jolted by every pebble in the road.

Cessna 172, C172, C-172, Cessna Skyhawk fan.
www.cessna172club.com

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