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#26415 - 03/01/11 07:09 PM Who is at fault, you be the judge !
Rusty Rudder Offline
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 02/26/10
Posts: 8418
Loc: Fair Haven New York
Almost a fist fight at the airport today, I will leave the names out to protect the innocent....

This situation involves two airplanes approaching the same runway from different directions. Airplane A has a radio failure, he can broadcast, but cannot hear other traffic, but can hear ATIS, and starts his announcements 10miles out to the east headed for a streight in approach for 330. He listens to ATIS, no wind. He announces from 10mi, 7mi, 5mi and 3mi, asks for any traffic in the pattern to announce, several times, of course, no response that he knows of. Like many days, it is not uncommon to have no one around, the airport can be like a gost town for weeks on end.
_________________________
Take-off's are optional, landings are manditory


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#26417 - 03/01/11 07:18 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: Rusty Rudder]
Hawker172D Offline
Pilot in Command

Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 492
Loc: NE PA
My first thought is what is the reported "calm wind" runway? If I had to pick, I'd go with the pilot who was headed that way.
_________________________
Hawker


Flying an airplane with only a single propeller to keep you in the air. Can you imagine that? ~ Captain Picard

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#26419 - 03/01/11 07:28 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: Rusty Rudder]
November X-ray Offline
Club Sponsor
Gold Pilot

Registered: 08/15/10
Posts: 2303
Loc: Brookshire, Texas, USA
I have a few questions:
1. - Does the airport have a standard left hand pattern? (or published non-standard pattern, left for 33, right for 15 or vice-versa)
2. - If plane "A" has a radio failure and cannot hear any other traffic but can hear ATIS, can we assume plane "A" knows there is a radio failure? Meaning are they sure the radio is transmitting?
3. - Since runway 33 is mentioned, what "different" directions are the planes coming from?
4. - Did plane "B" land on the opposite end, runway 15?
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#26420 - 03/01/11 07:30 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: Rusty Rudder]
Rusty Rudder Offline
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 02/26/10
Posts: 8418
Loc: Fair Haven New York
Airplane B, approaches from the opposite area 10 miles out, relatively sure he is talking quite actively on the radio, but, not to Airplane A, whatsoever! Pilot B continues on a final into rwy 150, as he gets almost to the ground, evidently, he announces an emergency go around on account of airplane A. Airplane A and B pass 2 or 3 plane seperations away at warp speed in opposite directions. Airplane A, announces, Oswego traffic, has that plane trying to land on 150 got a radio, of course, no response. Upon landing pilot B goes to pilot A's hangar and wants to [censored] slap him. Pilot B says, I established and active runway and pilot A should have abided. Pilot A says, you established nothing, except ignorance for continuing on a crash course. Pilot B admits to hearing all of Pilot A's transmissions. Pilot B says the wind favored 150, pilot A says, the ATIS said wind was calm, period ! the wind sock might have stopped in the direction of 150 but no wind existed, period ! Pilot A says, if no one accknoleged pilot B's transmissions, you established nothing as pilot A, could not hear pilot B and could only hear ATIS, and no wind existed. Pilot B thinks pilot A is at fault, pilot A thinks pilot B is at fault, as Pilot A says, you heard each transmission and made a decision to continue while knowing an inbound aircraft in the opposite direction(on a crash course) made 4 transmissions without accknowleging pilot B and still continued in an attempt to land. Pilot B reiterates, I established an active runway and pilot A should have abided... YOU be the judge, what would you have done if you were pilot B, with good working radio and not getting any feedback from pilot A...?
_________________________
Take-off's are optional, landings are manditory


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#26421 - 03/01/11 07:31 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: Rusty Rudder]
Rusty Rudder Offline
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 02/26/10
Posts: 8418
Loc: Fair Haven New York
Pilot A does not know he has a radio problem, only assumes a slow day as per usual...
_________________________
Take-off's are optional, landings are manditory


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#26422 - 03/01/11 07:31 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: Hawker172D]
wrecksum Offline
SVP Public Relations
Platinum Pilot

Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 2704
Loc: Dominican Republic
Not quite clear what happened here Rusty,
The guy with radio failure can talk but not hear, announces miles out and all the way in with no replies 'cos he can't Rx, then what happened?
Did the other guy just pop up and land on 15 or what?
Doesn't the ATIS give Rwy in use?
_________________________
A person without a sense of humour is like a wagon without springs.It's jolted by every pebble in the road.

Cessna 172, C172, C-172, Cessna Skyhawk fan.
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#26423 - 03/01/11 07:32 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: wrecksum]
November X-ray Offline
Club Sponsor
Gold Pilot

Registered: 08/15/10
Posts: 2303
Loc: Brookshire, Texas, USA
One last question, did you hit him Rusty?
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N. X.




www.cessna172club.com

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#26424 - 03/01/11 07:35 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: November X-ray]
November X-ray Offline
Club Sponsor
Gold Pilot

Registered: 08/15/10
Posts: 2303
Loc: Brookshire, Texas, USA
I make it a habit not to bring a knife to a gun fight!
_________________________
N. X.




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#26425 - 03/01/11 07:36 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: November X-ray]
Rusty Rudder Offline
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 02/26/10
Posts: 8418
Loc: Fair Haven New York
Haaahaaaaaaa, I was Pilot A NX, couldnt believe this dude wanted to [censored] slap me. Nor could I believ anyone would continue on a crash course not being acknowledged by the other incoming traffic. If I hear someone is coming in, I try to talk with them and get a plan that works for all, but, if he dont respond, I stay the hell away until he is clear, cuz if he aint responding to my calls, we are not on the same page...
_________________________
Take-off's are optional, landings are manditory


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#26426 - 03/01/11 07:43 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: Rusty Rudder]
Rusty Rudder Offline
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 02/26/10
Posts: 8418
Loc: Fair Haven New York
No ATis does not give the active, uncontrolled field, unicom only. After the other dude gave his story to 4 or 5 county employees, I went in and gave them mine, they said we listened to the whole thing unfold, the other guy should have aborted way sooner than waiting till he was on the runway and realizing I could not hear any of his transmissions.... who knows, just lucky were both not dead !!! Let this senario be a lesson to anyone who can follow. I had to write it in two parts because I cant type past 10 or 15 lines and see what I am typing... should have put, to be continued...
_________________________
Take-off's are optional, landings are manditory


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#26427 - 03/01/11 07:46 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: Rusty Rudder]
November X-ray Offline
Club Sponsor
Gold Pilot

Registered: 08/15/10
Posts: 2303
Loc: Brookshire, Texas, USA
Maybe plane "B" radio's are not transmitting? What did the county guys say?
_________________________
N. X.




www.cessna172club.com

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#26428 - 03/01/11 07:53 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: November X-ray]
Rusty Rudder Offline
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 02/26/10
Posts: 8418
Loc: Fair Haven New York
County heard all of B's transmissions and A's transmissions, A didnt have the ability to hear B, but B heard all of A's and even talked to unicom, so they could hear and talk to each other, A hears nothing except ATIs and no wind...
_________________________
Take-off's are optional, landings are manditory


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#26429 - 03/01/11 07:55 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: Rusty Rudder]
November X-ray Offline
Club Sponsor
Gold Pilot

Registered: 08/15/10
Posts: 2303
Loc: Brookshire, Texas, USA
Sounds like "B" is an idiot, but then what do I know?
_________________________
N. X.




www.cessna172club.com

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#26430 - 03/01/11 07:56 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: November X-ray]
wrecksum Offline
SVP Public Relations
Platinum Pilot

Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 2704
Loc: Dominican Republic
OK got the rest of the info now.
I always thought that once the closest aircraft set up the pattern and called accordingly, despite what the wind is doing, then the next pilots have to follow this pattern so in this case A should have been able to prioritize the runway direction.
Would assume that B thought he was there first although it is difficult to know what he was thinking as he had heard the calls from the other plane and I would think anyone with a brain would stay away and wait to see what was happening first.
Pretty sure I would!


Edited by wrecksum (03/01/11 07:56 PM)
_________________________
A person without a sense of humour is like a wagon without springs.It's jolted by every pebble in the road.

Cessna 172, C172, C-172, Cessna Skyhawk fan.
www.cessna172club.com

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#26433 - 03/01/11 07:59 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: wrecksum]
November X-ray Offline
Club Sponsor
Gold Pilot

Registered: 08/15/10
Posts: 2303
Loc: Brookshire, Texas, USA
It also sounds like a trip to the radio shop is in order!
_________________________
N. X.




www.cessna172club.com

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#26435 - 03/01/11 08:07 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: November X-ray]
Rusty Rudder Offline
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 02/26/10
Posts: 8418
Loc: Fair Haven New York
Yeah, just lucky to be alive ! I know if I didn't get a response from someone I would re-think the situation. I said to the county, I am probably at fault for having a radio failure, but, he shouldn't have continued on a crash course knowing, from my transmissions, I had no intentions of landing 150 as I announced all the way in and did not vary from my intentions... who knows !
Like I said, lucky to be alive ! Unfortunate incident, I appologized to the guy for my radio, but, still think he should have aborted much sooner, and should have tried to say hey, can you hear me !!!! Period, thats what I would do !!
_________________________
Take-off's are optional, landings are manditory


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#26438 - 03/01/11 08:12 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: Rusty Rudder]
November X-ray Offline
Club Sponsor
Gold Pilot

Registered: 08/15/10
Posts: 2303
Loc: Brookshire, Texas, USA
As in most things in this world, clear and concise communications are invaluable, but on another note, what would "B" do if there were NORDO traffic???
_________________________
N. X.




www.cessna172club.com

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#26441 - 03/01/11 08:17 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: Rusty Rudder]
wrecksum Offline
SVP Public Relations
Platinum Pilot

Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 2704
Loc: Dominican Republic
This does make a case for the debate on pattern entry which is going on in AOPA.
Some folks would like the European and I believe, Canadian method over coming over the top at TPA +500, having a good look then descending andentering the pattern on a parallel or extended base. Not quite sure exactly but reckon our resident CFI's could explain better.
_________________________
A person without a sense of humour is like a wagon without springs.It's jolted by every pebble in the road.

Cessna 172, C172, C-172, Cessna Skyhawk fan.
www.cessna172club.com

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#26443 - 03/01/11 08:19 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: November X-ray]
wrecksum Offline
SVP Public Relations
Platinum Pilot

Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 2704
Loc: Dominican Republic
Originally Posted By: November X-ray
As in most things in this world, clear and concise communications are invaluable, but on another note, what would "B" do if there were NORDO traffic???


Good point.
I was told to assume that planes at an uncontrolled airport don't have radio and act accordingly, but that was a time ago.
_________________________
A person without a sense of humour is like a wagon without springs.It's jolted by every pebble in the road.

Cessna 172, C172, C-172, Cessna Skyhawk fan.
www.cessna172club.com

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#26449 - 03/01/11 08:22 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: wrecksum]
Rusty Rudder Offline
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 02/26/10
Posts: 8418
Loc: Fair Haven New York
I probably should have overflown the field to verify, had I known the radio wasnt working I wouldn't have done a streight in approach and would have checked the field for traffic. Typically we dont have alot of traffic and it's not uncommon to have no one around most of the time, fuel prices have pushed most out of the sky... Overflying the field @ 500 + TPA is a good habit !
_________________________
Take-off's are optional, landings are manditory


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#26462 - 03/01/11 08:46 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: wrecksum]
California Flyer Offline
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 6215
Loc: Groveland, California
Originally Posted By: wrecksum
This does make a case for the debate on pattern entry which is going on in AOPA.
Some folks would like the European and I believe, Canadian method over coming over the top at TPA +500, having a good look then descending andentering the pattern on a parallel or extended base. Not quite sure exactly but reckon our resident CFI's could explain better.

I'm not a CFI but I am recently "schooled" and I can explain how I was taught-

Overfly the airport at TPA +500' or +1000', crossing mid-field perpendicular to the runways. fly one minute away, then turn and fly one minute in the direction of the 45 degree entry for the pattern, then turn to enter on the 45 for the downwind leg of the pattern. The "one minute" is fairly arbitrary...you want to go about a mile out and a mile up, which should put you right on the 45 (adjust for terrain, of course!). You're also descending to TPA as you enter the 45 so that you're at TPA by the time you join the downwind leg.

Whether you overfly at TPA +500 or +1000 is something of a debate... I tend to go with 1000' as long as you can see the windsock (for those airports that don't have AWOS or ATIS).
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Owner of N291ME, a 2000 Cessna 172SP

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#26464 - 03/01/11 08:48 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: California Flyer]
November X-ray Offline
Club Sponsor
Gold Pilot

Registered: 08/15/10
Posts: 2303
Loc: Brookshire, Texas, USA
I was taught the 1-2 method, one thousand feet above TPA and two miles away before maneuvering, then same as CF states above!
_________________________
N. X.




www.cessna172club.com

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#26468 - 03/01/11 08:52 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: November X-ray]
wrecksum Offline
SVP Public Relations
Platinum Pilot

Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 2704
Loc: Dominican Republic
I believe the debate also centers around the 45deg entry not being the best visual position which is why they don't like it.
I've tried to read it but fall asleep after one line.!
_________________________
A person without a sense of humour is like a wagon without springs.It's jolted by every pebble in the road.

Cessna 172, C172, C-172, Cessna Skyhawk fan.
www.cessna172club.com

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#26813 - 03/02/11 01:58 AM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: wrecksum]
RodneyHooverCFI Offline
The Cessna Sensei
Gold Pilot

Registered: 02/16/10
Posts: 1646
Loc: Pasadena, MD
RR, even before reading that you were pilot A, I was on pilot A's side. "Active runway" is like "any traffic in the area, please advise": it's something every pilot knows about, but really should be banished from ever being used. B didn't establish anything other that admitting that he was fly with his head shoved so far up his rear end that he could smell his own breath for choosing to ignore your calls and that he is very self-centered for being surprised to find you in his way even though he knew it well before then. Uncontrolled airports do NOT have an active runway, only controlled ones and I can't remember ever hearing a controller even say it. They only say runway name and say that "runway XX is in use..."
One could mention something about right-of-way. Can't remember if you mentioned anything to establish who really had it, I'm typing this on my phone, so not real easy to scroll up to check. Anyhow, in my book, right-of-way doesn't matter much to me. You can have it clear as day and still end up dead, so I don't bank on it. Pedestrians have the right-of-way, but I'm sure not going to knowingly step out in front of a car just on faith that the law gives me more rights than the driver. If there is someone out there posing a hazard for me, I'm going to do what I can to ensure the safest path for me to get out of the danger area, give true other guy plenty of room, then resume what I want to do once the conflict has cleared.
I've yet to talk to a person that flies that didn't get into it for their love of flight, so can anyone explain why so many pilots get mad about an occurance that would make them spend a few more minutes in the air to clear out?? Only time I would ever have a problem staying up another 2 minutes is when I only have one minute of fuel left. That has never happened to me. I get paid by the hour to fly, make me have to stay up there as long as you need!
_________________________
Flight Instructor- ASEL and Instrument Airplane
Commercial Pilot with Instrument Rating- ASEL & AMEL
Assistant Chief Instructor at W00, Freeway Aviation.
States I've flown to-

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#26919 - 03/02/11 07:06 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: Rusty Rudder]
Don Tedrow Offline
Platinum Pilot

Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 3659
Loc: Bastrop, TX
Cripes, if I heard someone landing opposite direction from me, I'd simply circle around and line up again after he landed. What's the BFD? Everybody thinks just because they announce on downwind, base, and final, that Jesus Christ himself authorised them to land without impediment. I've had to go around for all sort of bone-headed and innocent, "sh*t happens" reasons. It's something every pilot should be prepaired to do. The numbskulls who think they always got the right-of-way must be the ones that land on runways with Xs and trucks parked on them.

It's an UNCONTROLLED airport, fly defensively, and get over it. Otherwise, build your own private runway.
_________________________
1972 F33A Bonanza


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