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#279854 - 02/04/16 07:25 PM Re: Pilots Bill of Rights 2 [Re: Wayne R]
LAHSO4 Offline
Safety Pilot

Registered: 12/16/12
Posts: 47
Loc: USA
There is something I didn't well understand nor accept prior to previously posting and I think everyone should think long and hard about this. PBR2 for 3rd class gives the Primary care doctor the responsibility to clear you for flying. This means YOUR ENTIRE MEDICAL RECORD IS REVIEWED FOR FLIGHT. With the advent of Electronic Medical records, these become comprehensive. Anything in the past, in your record is game. Where as with a 3rd class medical, only what you provide to the AME is recorded for evaluation and certification. I believe this a Pandora's box for many people and could be a Catch-22.


Edited by LAHSO4 (02/04/16 08:16 PM)
_________________________
"Red Velvet" 1961 Cessna 172B Skyhawk

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#279863 - 02/04/16 08:57 PM Re: Pilots Bill of Rights 2 [Re: LAHSO4]
N5479R Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 04/13/14
Posts: 2232
Loc: Florida
Then you have the problem of withholding information from your AME which would be readily accessible by the FAA via accessing the Medical Information Bureau...the medical world's equivalent of your personal credit bureau report. Failure to disclose to your AME will buy you trouble if you get caught.



Edited by N5479R (02/04/16 08:58 PM)

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#279876 - 02/04/16 11:18 PM Re: Pilots Bill of Rights 2 [Re: N5479R]
Curious1 Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 03/12/13
Posts: 1409
Loc: Pacific NW, USA
I recall reading about a rather nasty outcome for a group of perhaps 25 pilots who were caught lying on their medicals about their ailments. It's been a few years, 10 or 12 since I read the account. In a nutshell, for some reason the FAA had a reason to match the Social Security Administration DB against the pilot medical db. In the process they learned of several pilots collecting disability payments for various medical issues that are on the 'opps, AME you can't issue' list. When we sign the bottom of the medical application we're granting the FAA permission to look elsewhere at other db when they have 'cause'. They might not do it just for grins, but if we get involved in something with fatalities we might find accident investigators looking at every record in any db that might yield pertinent information. I'm sure we've all seen the fine print of our family doctor's privacy policy... investigations by law enforcement etc. mean our record is their to examine. Also, according to the FAA website, the FAA medical becomes a "permanent record" so errors of omission and commission are with us forever...
_________________________
"Safety" simply means "the risk is acceptable" - no more, no less.

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#279882 - 02/05/16 05:27 AM Re: Pilots Bill of Rights 2 [Re: Curious1]
Joeman434 Online   content
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 02/19/14
Posts: 6780
Loc: Ocala, Florida
I heard that most of them had Alzheimer's Disease and simply forgot to tell their AME.
_________________________
Do it right the first time.

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#279883 - 02/05/16 05:42 AM Re: Pilots Bill of Rights 2 [Re: Curious1]
Flubber4.0 Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 08/22/14
Posts: 1104
Loc: blue marble
The big question is, how many accidents due to the medical issues did this group really have on records and is a general surveillance of everybody an appropriate measure? Do we allow an abstract fear of some to threaten freedom for all?
_________________________
Rules without reason engender resentment and foster suspicions of all rules. They are an anathema and should be fought at every turn.

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#279950 - 02/05/16 06:41 PM Re: Pilots Bill of Rights 2 [Re: Flubber4.0]
vettdvr Offline
Club Sponsor
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 06/24/10
Posts: 7724
Loc: Slidell La
Originally Posted By: Flubber4.0
The big question is, how many accidents due to the medical issues did this group really have on records and is a general surveillance of everybody an appropriate measure? Do we allow an abstract fear of some to threaten freedom for all?


Are you trying to deal with real Data. Don't you know government deals with votes not data? sick
_________________________
Vettdvr

Single/Multi/instrument/type/commercial But then I am still learning.

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#279956 - 02/05/16 07:43 PM Re: Pilots Bill of Rights 2 [Re: Wayne R]
Shifty Offline
Second in Command

Registered: 06/01/11
Posts: 245
Loc: Florida
Plan on doing your si at least one more time. Even if the PBOR2 were passed today, the FAA can (and will, in my opinion), sit on it for 12 months before implementation. Any feelings on whether or not they will turn down a high percentage of si's during that time?

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#279968 - 02/05/16 09:39 PM Re: Pilots Bill of Rights 2 [Re: Flubber4.0]
mobius4niner Offline
Pilot in Command

Registered: 09/09/11
Posts: 455
Loc: Seattle, WA
I, for one, would love to see this bill passed. When I was 14 I was diagnosed with a heart murmur. The FAA AME at the time would not approve of my third class medical for flight training. It was deferred. I eventually quit flying. Years later- different AME- same thing. AME deferred my application unless I went through HIS office for additional studies.

I ended up doing additional tests through my personal physician and worked with the FAA to obtain my third class. The FAA was actually a pleasure to work with and they granted me my medical with no limitations.

This is for a 25 year old.

Then I met my current AME- who is an Air Force flight surgeon. When I explained to him all my horrors in dealing with doctors and testing- he laughed and said that it was a joke for the other AME's to defer my medical applications. He immediately approved my third class and I'm happily in the air.

The third class medical is a joke. I'd like to see it disappear completely; but the changes in S.571 are welcome.


Edited by mobius4niner (02/05/16 09:42 PM)

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#279972 - 02/05/16 10:35 PM Re: Pilots Bill of Rights 2 [Re: Flubber4.0]
cadcap Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 11/17/11
Posts: 1842
Loc: NW Indiana
Originally Posted By: Flubber4.0
The big question is, how many accidents due to the medical issues did this group really have on records and is a general surveillance of everybody an appropriate measure? Do we allow an abstract fear of some to threaten freedom for all?


Do We? Do We? Hell yea we do...in nearly every respect...work, play, religion, family...govmint is still growing outta control...end of "America" looms nearer every year...
_________________________
1967 172H "Bronze Lindy" OshKosh '13


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#279973 - 02/05/16 10:41 PM Re: Pilots Bill of Rights 2 [Re: Joeman434]
Curious1 Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 03/12/13
Posts: 1409
Loc: Pacific NW, USA
Originally Posted By: Joeman434
I heard that most of them had Alzheimer's Disease and simply forgot to tell their AME.


Joeman, I'm sure you meant this tongue-in-cheek. It's a very sad fact that you'll find at least a couple fatal accidents in recent years described in the NTSB db where Alzheimer's was a factor. The really sad part isn't that the ill person died nor the loss of beautiful airplanes. No, the sad parts of these events were that neither they nor their kin disclosed to persons who also perished in the accidents that they (the pilot) had the disease. THAT is very sad, IMHO.
_________________________
"Safety" simply means "the risk is acceptable" - no more, no less.

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#279984 - 02/06/16 05:44 AM Re: Pilots Bill of Rights 2 [Re: Curious1]
Joeman434 Online   content
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 02/19/14
Posts: 6780
Loc: Ocala, Florida
It was a joke...for those that can take one.

However, living in Florida, where there seem to be skid-billions of retirees down here there isn't a week that goes by that my phone goes on alert for an Alzheimer's victim has vanished....driving, walking...or just simply vanished. A good deal of the time the outcome isn't a pleasant one...or the outcome is a mystery. So with that said...and we can't just lock them up, they will continue to walk, drive and some will even fly. I guess it's a calculated risk just letting them live their lives. And the survivors of the few that have perished in an airplane during the last decade will always say..."He died doing what he loved." And we close the book and move on.


Edited by Joeman434 (02/06/16 05:47 AM)
_________________________
Do it right the first time.

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#279991 - 02/06/16 06:02 AM Re: Pilots Bill of Rights 2 [Re: Shifty]
Wayne R Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 07/17/12
Posts: 2001
Loc: Central Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: Shifty
Plan on doing your si at least one more time. Even if the PBOR2 were passed today, the FAA can (and will, in my opinion), sit on it for 12 months before implementation. Any feelings on whether or not they will turn down a high percentage of si's during that time?


My health is better now than any time in 15 years as a pilot, yet my SI becomes more and more difficult to keep. Yes, I believe the scrutiny will increase.
_________________________
Wayne

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#279992 - 02/06/16 06:06 AM Re: Pilots Bill of Rights 2 [Re: cadcap]
Wayne R Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 07/17/12
Posts: 2001
Loc: Central Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: cadcap

Do We? Do We? Hell yea we do...in nearly every respect...work, play, religion, family...govmint is still growing outta control...end of "America" looms nearer every year...


I share your fear. It's not even the same America I grew up in. What a shame. The younger people don't even know what they've lost already.
_________________________
Wayne

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#279996 - 02/06/16 06:11 AM Re: Pilots Bill of Rights 2 [Re: Wayne R]
Joeman434 Online   content
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 02/19/14
Posts: 6780
Loc: Ocala, Florida
"I share your fear. It's not even the same America I grew up in. What a shame. The younger people don't even know what they've lost already."

No truer words were ever spoken.....I tell my daughter that she will never know the meaning of "The good old times."
_________________________
Do it right the first time.

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#280062 - 02/06/16 08:13 PM Re: Pilots Bill of Rights 2 [Re: Joeman434]
November X-ray Offline
Club Sponsor
Gold Pilot

Registered: 08/15/10
Posts: 2303
Loc: Brookshire, Texas, USA
Originally Posted By: Joeman434
"I share your fear. It's not even the same America I grew up in. What a shame. The younger people don't even know what they've lost already."

No truer words were ever spoken.....I tell my daughter that she will never know the meaning of "The good old times."


And sadly, there is no where to go to find it again!
_________________________
N. X.




www.cessna172club.com

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#280071 - 02/06/16 09:40 PM Re: Pilots Bill of Rights 2 [Re: November X-ray]
IDontFly Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 1341
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
I'm typing this on an old computer which has about 225 times as much memory on the graphics card as the total memory of the mainframe I used when I started my software engineering career. It also has a solid state boot disk which has more capacity than the entire manufacturing facility where we built the mainframes.

I have a car which has over 100,000 miles on it. And I never have to add a quart of oil between changes.

I have a cell phone which is absolutely amazing, or it would be if I could figure out where I left it (but that's not the fault of the phone).

We own a Cessna 172 with a moving map GPS that does things a 747 couldn't do only a few years ago. I can see traffic and weather on a tablet which is a bit smaller than a sheet of paper. And I know my position to within a few feet because I get information from a bunch of satellites orbiting the planet.

I can search the world for a used part. I can get advice from an A&P mechanic over a thousand miles away. I can download music performed by an obscure Women's choral group in Bulgaria and listen to it while I'm reading e-mail from a friend in Madagascar.

Your daughter is in a world where we have capabilities even the best science fiction writers couldn't imagine.

And technology is advancing more rapidly than at any time in our history.

"The good old times"? You gotta be kidding!

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#280072 - 02/06/16 09:56 PM Re: Pilots Bill of Rights 2 [Re: IDontFly]
Joeman434 Online   content
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 02/19/14
Posts: 6780
Loc: Ocala, Florida
No.....I'm not kidding. Even my daughter is smart enough to know better. Maybe in Massachusetts the world revolves around technology. Maybe that's not all there is. We have one of those in the neighborhood....only one. He still thinks Barry is doing a great job. Only one...
_________________________
Do it right the first time.

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#280075 - 02/06/16 10:11 PM Re: Pilots Bill of Rights 2 [Re: IDontFly]
cyendrey Offline
Pilot in Command

Registered: 12/01/13
Posts: 446
Loc: La Vernia, Texas
Originally Posted By: IDontFly
I'm typing this on an old computer which has about 225 times as much memory on the graphics card as the total memory of the mainframe I used when I started my software engineering career. It also has a solid state boot disk which has more capacity than the entire manufacturing facility where we built the mainframes.

I have a car which has over 100,000 miles on it. And I never have to add a quart of oil between changes.

I have a cell phone which is absolutely amazing, or it would be if I could figure out where I left it (but that's not the fault of the phone).

We own a Cessna 172 with a moving map GPS that does things a 747 couldn't do only a few years ago. I can see traffic and weather on a tablet which is a bit smaller than a sheet of paper. And I know my position to within a few feet because I get information from a bunch of satellites orbiting the planet.

I can search the world for a used part. I can get advice from an A&P mechanic over a thousand miles away. I can download music performed by an obscure Women's choral group in Bulgaria and listen to it while I'm reading e-mail from a friend in Madagascar.

Your daughter is in a world where we have capabilities even the best science fiction writers couldn't imagine.

And technology is advancing more rapidly than at any time in our history.

"The good old times"? You gotta be kidding!


Technology doesn't make this the good old days. Can your kids go outside and run the block with the other kids until Mom hollers at them it's time to come inside for supper? And not gave Familynservices charge you with neglect, or you be concerned dome stranger is going to kidnap or molest them? Can your kid decide to sell lemonade and not gave a health officer stop them and ask to see their permit? Remember when US schools actually excelled and kids learned AND respected their teachers? And the Damietta Doctor made house calls? All of those things were the norm when I grew up, pillars of our society, yet all have been lost in my lifetime to regulations and symbolized interference from a government that's "...here to help..." I'm not that old, not yet sixty, yet America today resembles the USSR more than it does the America I grew up in. So emphatically NO, my children and grandchildren have grown up in a world, in an America far less free, more mediocre, less driven by self reliance and the will to excel than the one I did.
Technology is just tools, it make things possible, easier, but is itself neither good or bad. As a society, we've used those tools to turn inward in self absorbed narcissism, instead of outward in exploration and expansion. The map is not the terrain, an error computer centric technology is particularly prone to.
Sorry for intruding, this is a topic that is a peeve of mine.
_________________________
Clayton,
" CFI to Student: You were only supposed to simulate securing the engine for emergency landing... (As silence fills the cabin...)"

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#280080 - 02/06/16 10:33 PM Re: Pilots Bill of Rights 2 [Re: cyendrey]
Don Tedrow Offline
Platinum Pilot

Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 3659
Loc: Bastrop, TX
While it's easy to blame the damn gummit for all society's ills, the damn gummit is the citizens. The people elected our representatives, and DEMANDED their government fix their perceived problems. Did Government do a good job? No, many times they didn't. But then I also blame the citizens for demanding an official with a badge or a title to fix all their petty problems instead of solving them themselves locally. In my own minor career in the Govt, I weekly had to listen to complaints from pilots about the routes and headings to fly on departure, and minutes later listen to complaints from some ground bound citizen about the damn airplanes flying over his house. Then I had to listen to the airport manager who answered to the city government about the noise complaints THEY were receiving. And you know who paid my salary and I was supposedly working for? Every damn one of those people. Even the crabby old fart that bought a house two miles off the end of the runway, because he pays taxes too. Yet all the crabby pilots seemed to think I only worked for pilots.

People who simply blame the government without looking in the mirror and at their own neighbors are just being too lazy to actually think about the problems or consider any viewpoint other than their own. All the EASY stuff about Government was figured out hundreds of years ago. Trying to keep a few million self important tax-paying citizens with a thousand different viewpoints and ideas and issues happy is a fool's errand.

If you want proof, just run for the local school board.
_________________________
1972 F33A Bonanza


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#280086 - 02/06/16 11:14 PM Re: Pilots Bill of Rights 2 [Re: Don Tedrow]
California Flyer Offline
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 6199
Loc: Groveland, California
For all those folks waxing poetic about "the good old days" remember that there is a lot of bad stuff we've thankfully left behind. I'm a little younger than most here, but I clearly remember growing up in a time of riots, unrest in the streets, and discrimination based on color, and gender, and religion. I for one am thrilled that (for the most part) I can work in a field with my peers and not be held back because of my sex, that my ideas are given equal weight and consideration. My friends can marry the ones they love, even if they are of different races or the same sex. We as a society have finally buried a lot of the stupid prejudices that really made no sense. We're on to new challenges to tackle, and that's progress in my opinion. I doubt I would be doing what I am doing today had I lived in any other era.

I do echo Don's sentiments that we have forgotten how, or don't want, to fix our own petty problems. Living now in a rural area, we have more of a "fix it yourself" mindset. Government is scarce, stores are scarce, and people trade with each other and fix what we've got. For small communities, this works well. I'm not sure how to take this spirit and apply it to larger communities, though.
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http://www.cessna172club.com


Owner of N291ME, a 2000 Cessna 172SP

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#280087 - 02/06/16 11:24 PM Re: Pilots Bill of Rights 2 [Re: Don Tedrow]
SunDog Offline
Pilot in Command

Registered: 09/01/13
Posts: 307
Loc: Maryland
I hear you, and agree, to a point - people get the gov't they deserve, mostly. But not sure it's being lazy, though. . .so many hours in a day, and after work and family, I'd like to not have to be an expert on ATC, public health, SEC filings, etc. It'd be great to hire rxperts and employ them, with an expectation they'd be competent. You can fire your accountant, but the pernicious boobies in the Fed agencies are at too far a remove. . .there are only minor consequences to most of them for bungling, and those repercusions are slow to be felt, and usually minor. Yeah, I can vote for a congressman, but that's a long, long way from impacting a dumb-a** FAA policy.

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#280091 - 02/07/16 12:54 AM Re: Pilots Bill of Rights 2 [Re: California Flyer]
Joeman434 Online   content
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 02/19/14
Posts: 6780
Loc: Ocala, Florida
It's not like we don't have riots CF..we still do and maybe worse at times. I'll compare Newark to Ferguson or Baltimore any day. Same thing...different day. Maybe we are getting used to them when we hear about them and just pass it off.
Sure some things are better, but a lot of things are worse. The personal values have deteriorated almost totally out of sight. When I was growing up, a person was only as good as their word. We closed deals....I'm talking big deals on a handshake. My first house was built on a handshake, and I paid for it when it was done. He kept his word and so did I. The only paper I signed was his check. Go find that today. If things didn't go as expected, we just sucked it up and went on. Now it's somebody's fault if things go wrong. Businesses (banks too) weren't bailed out...you made it or you didn't. Paid too much for your house...that's your problem....not some weenie in the government telling you it isn't your fault. And who's money bails these things out? The governments? Where do they get the money...us the taxpayers. My money...and I don't like how it is spent.
Kids did things together like build a fort in the back yard, a tree house...not sit in their room all day pushing buttons on some electronic pos...they were healthier...more constructive...thoughtful, made up games. If you wanted to find your friends, just listen for them playing outside...or look to see where all the bicycles were parked. Now they text each other...do you really think that is better??
We used to just hop into a plane and go flying...that's it. Maybe you had a radio...maybe not...it didn't matter. Now look what you need and by 2020, it even gets better.
The government is so corrupt, I don't see how it could ever be as bad as it is...but here we are. I just don't have enough energy to go on about that now.
I'll still take the good old days over what we now have...but that's just me.
_________________________
Do it right the first time.

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#280093 - 02/07/16 03:08 AM Re: Pilots Bill of Rights 2 [Re: Joeman434]
Don Tedrow Offline
Platinum Pilot

Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 3659
Loc: Bastrop, TX
Just some random musings since I went to bed, but woke up wide awake at 0100. Figure I'll bore myself back to sleep.....



I went to a segregated elementary school. Some of my friends were not allowed to play ball in the street if any negros (the "polite" term we used in the good ole days) showed up to join us. Their parents called them back inside. On the other hand, after nightfall, their better not be any negros on "our" side of the railroad tracks, and us white folk better not be on theirs. Just your typical southern sundown town. Some people seem to miss those days, but I don't.

I live in a fairly nice neighborhood now. It's an acreage subdivision outside any city limits, with lots 2-5 acres or so. Upper middle class. (We even allow people of color to live here!) School bus comes by 400 yds from my front door, but the neighbors won't let their kids walk those 400 yds from the bus to their house. I'm talking less than the distance of once around the school track. Grandma meets the bus every day morning and evening, usually in her van. This ain't a dangerous neighborhood. The two most serious crimes I can recall in 15 yrs are theft of some building materials, and theft of a gas scooter. But you know the TV news or papers or internet has a story every week about a kid disappearing somewhere.

My school bus dropped me off over a mile from my house. My parents never picked us up, though they occasionally took pity on us on cold mornings. BTW, if you acted up on the bus, the driver threw your a$$ off on the side of the road, regardless of how far from home you were. He just told your stay at home Mom where he left you. Then you had that lovely long walk home while looking forward to a butt whippin for getting thrown off in the first place. I suspect kids got hit by cars and disappeared back then too, but the network news had some really nice wars and riots and assassinations to report on, and it just didn't make the local papers that often.

Almost every kid I went to school with had a job by the time we were old enough to drive. We worked on farms and ranches and McD's and the Charcoal Broiler or some other restaurant. Hauled hay and drove tractors and operated dangerous machinery without any plastic guards over the spinning parts. (That's how my cousin lost parts of four fingers) I've been noticing for over a decade now I never see a kid even mowing a lawn in my neighborhood anymore. Either Dad, or a lawn service does it, kids are too "busy".

Little league used to be practice two evenings a week after parents got home from work, and a game on Saturday at the town park. I had a Spaulding glove and a Hank Aaron Louisville Slugger bat. Probably set my folks back $40 together.

My Granddaughter loved playing softball until she blew out her shoulder. She was on a select team, practiced 3-4 times a week, and played all over 3 counties when they weren't going to a tournament 150 miles away that required a hotel stay on Friday night. She was the same age I was playing Little League. I was flabbergasted to learn an 11 yr old girl's softball bat alone cost something like $250+ now, what with the graphite and titanium and who knows what else. I guess Textron must be selling kid's baseball gear now.

Btw, the Dr said she blew out her shoulder because she was practicing 3-4 nights a week and then playing three games on weekends. So after spending thousands of $$$s on gear and pitching lessons and travel and hotels and league fees and then surgery, she's into Drama classes now, and doesn't play softball anymore. But you know, it don't seem like kids can just play sports without it turning into training for a junior Olympics. I guess all parents think they are going to get their kid a full ride scholarship to college.

I dunno. I got three kids and two step kids. They are all grown, gainfully employed, never been in jail or addicted to drugs and have families. I didn't get every question right, but I figure I passed. I'm proud as hell of some of what they all do, and I just shake my head at some of the rest. I guess that's been the difference between generations for a long time, and will be again. I think smart phones ought to be illegal for anyone under the age of 18, maybe 21. I think High Schools ought to have to teach basic budgeting and money management instead of algebra to graduate. I think Capital punishment ought to be rare and corporal punishment ought to be common. I think tequila is probably more dangerous than pot. I think if you put cola in your whiskey, that whiskey wasn't worth drinking, and if your steak needs sauce, it wasn't worth eating to begin with.


I'm going back to bed now.....
_________________________
1972 F33A Bonanza


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#280096 - 02/07/16 05:11 AM Re: Pilots Bill of Rights 2 [Re: Don Tedrow]
Wayne R Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 07/17/12
Posts: 2001
Loc: Central Pennsylvania
My first thought, this morning, is how nice it is to be part of a Forum in which this subject can be discussed in such a dignified manner.

Our opinions are based on personal experience and perspective. Each of us see things from a unique eye. I like hearing what others are seeing.

My second thought is to refill my coffee cup. grin
_________________________
Wayne

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#280107 - 02/07/16 08:57 AM Re: Pilots Bill of Rights 2 [Re: Wayne R]
November X-ray Offline
Club Sponsor
Gold Pilot

Registered: 08/15/10
Posts: 2303
Loc: Brookshire, Texas, USA
And this is what made this country great, the ability of people from all walks of life to share their viewpoints without the worry of being censored (or worse), of course it is still early in 2016. One thing is for sure, time will tell all!!!
_________________________
N. X.




www.cessna172club.com

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Airport code:
(separate multiple codes with spaces)

List of stations