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#31778 - 04/05/11 12:11 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: KYhawkXP]
Rusty Rudder Offline
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 02/26/10
Posts: 8418
Loc: Fair Haven New York
Originally Posted By: KYhawkXP
I always try to fly into non towered airports assuming there are planes out there with no radios. Radios are not required by law. Radios break. Radios are easily screwed up by operator error, squelch, wrong com switch, volume turned down etc. We must try to see and avoid other traffic (part 91.113). If both airplanes saw each other on opposite finals the lower airplane has the right of way. Over the runway is no place to play chicken. I also use a Zaon traffic unit which is a big help for situations like this to let you know someone's out there.
Agreed, exept both planes did not see each other, plane in the pattern heard and saw streight in plane, plane on 5mi final had no audio but was transmitting and did not see or hear plane in pattern. When one party can hear the other and chooses a collision course over doing a go around, that is reckless. After all, lets not forget, both approaches are legal with respect to FAR's, and streight in approaches are done every day at uncontrolled fields, are common, and are good practice during slow times at the field and, after all, it is the polot in command who chooses the active runway while operating in uncontrolled environments... Moral of the story, when you hear someone comming at you, you are unable to establish dialog, for god's sake do a go arounnd as opposed to choosing a collision course just because you think you are right, you can be right and dead!
_________________________
Take-off's are optional, landings are manditory


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#31783 - 04/05/11 12:50 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: Rusty Rudder]
Showboatsix Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 12/04/10
Posts: 1827
Loc: KUAO, Aurora, Oregon
RV Pilot............ what more can be said?
_________________________

Note: "Speed and 172 are not used in the same sentence!"


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#31784 - 04/05/11 12:52 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: Showboatsix]
Cessna Dude Offline
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 6628
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Damned low-winger!
_________________________
Due to certain economic uncertainty, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off until further notice.
Cessna 172, C172, C-172, Cessna Skyhawk fan.
www.cessna172club.com



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#31817 - 04/05/11 05:11 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: Cessna Dude]
Rusty Rudder Offline
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 02/26/10
Posts: 8418
Loc: Fair Haven New York
Originally Posted By: Cessna Dude
Damned low-winger!

Thats what I'm think-in ! LOL
_________________________
Take-off's are optional, landings are manditory


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#31821 - 04/05/11 05:16 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: Rusty Rudder]
November X-ray Offline
Club Sponsor
Gold Pilot

Registered: 08/15/10
Posts: 2303
Loc: Brookshire, Texas, USA
well that's your problem right there!
_________________________
N. X.




www.cessna172club.com

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#31827 - 04/05/11 05:28 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: November X-ray]
Rusty Rudder Offline
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 02/26/10
Posts: 8418
Loc: Fair Haven New York
If you aint flyin a high-winger, you mid-as well be walk-in !
_________________________
Take-off's are optional, landings are manditory


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#32364 - 04/10/11 06:00 AM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: Don Tedrow]
Rusty Rudder Offline
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 02/26/10
Posts: 8418
Loc: Fair Haven New York
Originally Posted By: Donald Tedrow
Cripes, if I heard someone landing opposite direction from me, I'd simply circle around and line up again after he landed. What's the BFD? Everybody thinks just because they announce on downwind, base, and final, that Jesus Christ himself authorised them to land without impediment. I've had to go around for all sort of bone-headed and innocent, "sh*t happens" reasons. It's something every pilot should be prepaired to do. The numbskulls who think they always got the right-of-way must be the ones that land on runways with Xs and trucks parked on them.

It's an UNCONTROLLED airport, fly defensively, and get over it. Otherwise, build your own private runway.
Indeed !
_________________________
Take-off's are optional, landings are manditory


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#34865 - 05/01/11 08:05 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: Rusty Rudder]
agghopp Offline
Pilot in Command

Registered: 02/17/10
Posts: 373
Loc: Buckeye State
I have to agree with you Rusty. Here's the thing: at an uncontrolled field there is no active runway, it's whatever rw you decide to use. Yesterday I was at a sleepy field and made a crosswind entry to left downwind for 23. As I went by midfield I could see the windsock that earlier had favored a departure on 23 had swung around and was actually going to give me a bit of a tailwind landing.

On final I was high and hot and went around early. On the next downwind for 23, I reconfirmed the windsock position and announced I was going to land on RW 5 instead of 23 and went ahead and landed that way.

In the meantime my buddy in his 152 announced he was downwind for 23 and ended up landing 23 after I was clear. Who was right? Answer: both of us!

For me, if I hear someone straight in for a runway opposite mine and he's not responding to my calls or otherwise acknowledging our shared existence, I'm just waiting for him to clear out. In fact, a straight in approach like that I just assume he forgot to switch from approach to CTAF and can't hear me, so B should have cleared out and given you way for the sake of his own skin if nothing else.

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#35036 - 05/03/11 04:22 AM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: Rusty Rudder]
Vrooden Offline
Second in Command

Registered: 05/02/11
Posts: 124
Loc: Washington DC
If he CLEARLY cant hear me, he has the right of way...

maybe I'm a noob on this but I would rather not die (if its an option)

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#35038 - 05/03/11 05:13 AM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: Vrooden]
Rusty Rudder Offline
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 02/26/10
Posts: 8418
Loc: Fair Haven New York
Faa investigator contacted me a few weeks ago via telephone and requested both pilots meet @ the FSDO that serves this airport. He said, basically I would just like to sit down with both of you and chat about this, put it to rest as per both of you were performing legal approaches to the same runway with a lack of good comunication at a non-towered field.
_________________________
Take-off's are optional, landings are manditory


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#35052 - 05/03/11 08:13 AM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: Rusty Rudder]
Vrooden Offline
Second in Command

Registered: 05/02/11
Posts: 124
Loc: Washington DC
As the PIC, its YOUR PERSONAL responsibility to make make sure you don't kill yourself
_________________________
http://www.youtube.com/user/VroodenTheGreat for vids

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#35072 - 05/03/11 09:56 AM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: Vrooden]
KYhawkXP Offline
Second in Command

Registered: 01/01/11
Posts: 128
Loc: Ky
There is a good legal article in AOPA this month that kind of relates to these types of things. It is more about straight in approaches and left turns in the pattern but is interesting to hear a strictly legal side of areas of the FARS that are really gray.

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#35075 - 05/03/11 10:07 AM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: KYhawkXP]
Hawker172D Offline
Pilot in Command

Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 492
Loc: NE PA
I fly almost exclusively at non-towered airports. I've learned to expect an idiot on every approach and simply to be prepared to give him room. It's kinda like when I ride my motorcycle. I don't trust any car that gets close to being within my "circle of safety."
_________________________
Hawker


Flying an airplane with only a single propeller to keep you in the air. Can you imagine that? ~ Captain Picard

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#35117 - 05/03/11 07:55 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: KYhawkXP]
Rusty Rudder Offline
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 02/26/10
Posts: 8418
Loc: Fair Haven New York
Originally Posted By: KYhawkXP
There is a good legal article in AOPA this month that kind of relates to these types of things. It is more about straight in approaches and left turns in the pattern but is interesting to hear a strictly legal side of areas of the FARS that are really gray.



Saw that article this evening, case history that is very interesting from a legal point of veiw and grey is a good description.
_________________________
Take-off's are optional, landings are manditory


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#35139 - 05/03/11 10:53 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: Rusty Rudder]
wrecksum Offline
SVP Public Relations
Platinum Pilot

Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 2704
Loc: Dominican Republic
I look at the legal aspects the same way I taught my kids to cross the road in Europe.
The black and white stripes are for legally crossing the road so when a car hits you you're illegally dead.

Same can apply to flying.
_________________________
A person without a sense of humour is like a wagon without springs.It's jolted by every pebble in the road.

Cessna 172, C172, C-172, Cessna Skyhawk fan.
www.cessna172club.com

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#37664 - 05/25/11 10:59 AM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: wrecksum]
Monty Offline
New Member

Registered: 03/06/10
Posts: 4
Loc: Louisiana, USA
RR, Im in no way trying to take the side of the jerk in the rv, but i noticed that you said your radio wasn't working and you couldn't hear any other transmissions except asos. But in your report you stated that you did a radio check to the FBO after the incident and that you were heard loud and clear and that you heard them loud and clear. My only question is how is this so if your radio wasn't functional?

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#37675 - 05/25/11 12:36 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: Monty]
Bob C Offline
Safety Pilot

Registered: 02/05/11
Posts: 92
Loc: USA Ilinois
Radio problems can be intermitent.

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#37682 - 05/25/11 01:55 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: Bob C]
Showboatsix Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 12/04/10
Posts: 1827
Loc: KUAO, Aurora, Oregon
Uncontrolled fields......radios not required!
SEE & BE SEEN


Both were lucky that day, mid-airs suck
_________________________

Note: "Speed and 172 are not used in the same sentence!"


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#37687 - 05/25/11 03:29 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: Bob C]
vettdvr Offline
Club Sponsor
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 06/24/10
Posts: 7724
Loc: Slidell La
Originally Posted By: Bob C
Radio problems can be intermitent.



My 2 Com was new and intermitent and I didn't know it until calling flight weather. Took it back and the sideband was adjusted and now it is great. So there can be intermitent conditions in radios.
_________________________
Vettdvr

Single/Multi/instrument/type/commercial But then I am still learning.

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#37690 - 05/25/11 03:50 PM Re: Who is at fault, you be the judge ! [Re: Showboatsix]
Propduster Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 1105
Loc: Nova Scotia, Canada
Well, I have to admit that this was a head scratcher for me. Yes, the argument can be made that if you suspected your radio was not 100%, you should have overflown before landing, or joined a proper downwind or whatever. But the pivotal item for me is buddy going ahead and landing in the opposite direction after ADMITTING that he heard your calls that you were on a straight in approach. Anyone that fundamentally dedicated to being DEAD right should be taken out back and summarily executed.

Joining procedures exist to try and minimize conflicts...they don't excuse someone from doing something knowingly that will place himself or anyone else in harm's way. I'm kind of surprised that the FAA saw fit to reinforce idiotstick's actions in any way.

On the trip back from Winnipeg, we were on downwind (all properly called) at Sherbrooke. Another 172 decided to try and occupy the same hunk of airspace and was way too close before he saw us. Communications there are primarily French, as are a fair number of the local pilots. I don't speak the language well at all, so it was very likely a simple case of miscommunication. I yanked the power, called number 2 for landing, buddy slid in in front of me (having seen me by this time), we both landed safely and he came over and shook my hand after we were both down to apologize/ensure there were no hard feelings for not having seen/heard/understood me.

The very first thing driven into our skulls from the first groundschool class was that the PIC is 100% responsible for avoidence in VFR flight, and is not totally absolved from the responsibility even in IFR. Following asspick's lead in your situation, I'd have said FU, given it the gas and probably ended up with us both as a smoking pile of rubble in the Quebec woods. When flying becomes some kind of "Who's swinging biggest pipe" demolition derby, I'll take up crochet.

PD
_________________________
1963 Cessna 172D C-FPEC

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