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#399767 - 12/26/19 09:00 AM Where to buy cylinders?
Challenger1 Online   content
Gold Pilot

Registered: 03/23/16
Posts: 1947
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
From talking with Mark at Air Power and Aircraft Spruce it seems that new lycoming cylinders have been on back order since April of this year?

Air Power said they don't have a set date when they may get some new ones in. Said many are turning to overhaul shops to get them back to overhauled standards verses new cylinders since the lycoming "fiasco".

So what would the professional APs suggest? What shop would you recommend for a overhaul and how long did it take?
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#399769 - 12/26/19 09:09 AM Re: Where to buy cylinders? [Re: Challenger1]
Flubber4.0 Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 08/22/14
Posts: 1104
Loc: blue marble
It all depends on the status of your old cyls. Have they been OH'ed before and how often? Are you still in the magical 'opposite cyl pairs no more different than one OH' regime? What difference in counterweights do your cyls have? I was living on OH'ed-when-needed cyls for years, which was kind of tricky due to the restrictions this imposes. When I got a TOH I got a full set of new cyls, which will be fine for some years, but - I already have one OH'ed and nobody really had a clue why it happened, maybe manufacturing imperfection.

Sorry, I don't have a shop recommendation other than the usual engine shops.
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Rules without reason engender resentment and foster suspicions of all rules. They are an anathema and should be fought at every turn.

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#399770 - 12/26/19 09:42 AM Re: Where to buy cylinders? [Re: Flubber4.0]
Bob2 Online   content
Safety Pilot

Registered: 12/26/13
Posts: 53
Loc: Arkansas
Performance Aircraft in Berryville, AR (pap2fly.com) is said to be pretty darn good by A&Pís over here. I havenít used him yet, but do have a set of Lycoming cylinders Iím taking over to him in a few weeks.

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#399771 - 12/26/19 09:48 AM Re: Where to buy cylinders? [Re: Flubber4.0]
Challenger1 Online   content
Gold Pilot

Registered: 03/23/16
Posts: 1947
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
Thanks for your input.

I am fouling #2 lower plug in 24 hours now.

I just talked with a very nice fellow at Signature engines here in town.

I Explained about the history of the motor, he took lot's of time with me on the phone. Asked a lot of questions. He had them check to see if Continental made clys for my h2ad while we were on the phone. No they don't he said. He has very reasonable prices on overhauled cylinders both steel and nickel plated.

But he said the motor has a tbo of 12 years or 2000 hours. I am going on 40 years since the motor was new and has never been overhauled. It did have the cam and lifters replaced in 1980 when the plane and motor was almost new. Said many times a oil fouled plug could be a sign of worn lifters and cam. Was really concerned about the time and the cam and lifters.

So I am thinking about a overhauled motor.

I cleaned the plugs 24 hours ago(not yesterday) and now one is fouled and I could tell something was up especially when I pulled the power to land, it was running rough.

The leak down is getting worse also as I leaked it again Xmas eve after flying it.

What to do?


Edited by Challenger1 (12/26/19 10:51 AM)
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#399772 - 12/26/19 10:25 AM Re: Where to buy cylinders? [Re: Challenger1]
magman Online   content
Gold Pilot

Registered: 10/10/12
Posts: 1380
Loc: buffalo NY
I would check your options on a conversion.

metal Cam that is spalling sends off metal particles to places

unknown.

One of those places is " Cylinder Walls".

At that point the Cylinders have issues.

Could that happen to your NEW Cylinders?

Maybe.

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#399773 - 12/26/19 10:48 AM Re: Where to buy cylinders? [Re: magman]
Challenger1 Online   content
Gold Pilot

Registered: 03/23/16
Posts: 1947
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
Originally Posted By: magman
I would check your options on a conversion.

metal Cam that is spalling sends off metal particles to places

unknown.

One of those places is " Cylinder Walls".

At that point the Cylinders have issues.

Could that happen to your NEW Cylinders?

Maybe.



Yes that is the next question I have. What does it take to put a different 160HP motor in it?

I have talked with my AP/IA this morning, but to be honest he spends most of his time maintaining jets and helicopters for one of the largest company's in the world...GE. So he does not have a lot of experience with cessna motors. He has been maintaining this plane since 1989 though.
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#399775 - 12/26/19 11:20 AM Re: Where to buy cylinders? [Re: Challenger1]
magman Online   content
Gold Pilot

Registered: 10/10/12
Posts: 1380
Loc: buffalo NY
I believe Penn Yan has the Delta Hawk conversion.

Gives you 2 separate mags.

Others like RAM & Del-Air may have similar.

The 180 upgrade is $$.

It doesn't cost to investigate optiond.

btw - Oil or Lead Fouling?

Do you do Post-Flight Runups?

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#399776 - 12/26/19 11:22 AM Re: Where to buy cylinders? [Re: magman]
magman Online   content
Gold Pilot

Registered: 10/10/12
Posts: 1380
Loc: buffalo NY
All conversions require more work than just Engine change.

Relocating Oil Filler Door & battery etc.

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#399780 - 12/26/19 12:26 PM Re: Where to buy cylinders? [Re: magman]
Jon H Offline
Pilot in Command

Registered: 05/04/19
Posts: 382
Loc: Arizona
I use a local guy Straight Aero aircraft engines

https://straightaeroaircraftengines.com/
_________________________
Jon

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#399781 - 12/26/19 12:55 PM Re: Where to buy cylinders? [Re: Jon H]
magman Online   content
Gold Pilot

Registered: 10/10/12
Posts: 1380
Loc: buffalo NY
One advantage of the H2AD is that the Lifters can be removed

& the Cam can be seen w/o removing your Cylinders.

Not a huge job but I think it's about 4 hrs.

This is something you may want to do before making a decision.

Once a Cam wears through the Case Hardening ( .002 in?)

the Lobe will wear rapidly and there will be no doubt

"IF" you need a Teardown.

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#399783 - 12/26/19 01:46 PM Re: Where to buy cylinders? [Re: magman]
Challenger1 Online   content
Gold Pilot

Registered: 03/23/16
Posts: 1947
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
Originally Posted By: magman
I believe Penn Yan has the Delta Hawk conversion.

Gives you 2 separate mags.

Others like RAM & Del-Air may have similar.

The 180 upgrade is $$.

It doesn't cost to investigate optiond.

btw - Oil or Lead Fouling?

Do you do Post-Flight Runups?


Thanks,

Oil fouling.

I have learned to do post flight run ups from you last month or so right after the last plug cleaning. I have been doing them after every flight, 1800 rpm for close to 30 seconds then 1200 and pull the fuel right away to kill the motor.

Unfortunately I can feel it is not right lately flying it, motor not as smooth as it used to be not too long after plug cleaning.

Going to do 2 things right off the bat. Going to put fresh plugs in tonight and fly it some more and see what I got.

Then going to cut the filter apart early and see if any metal in it after a couple more flights.

I have sent the oil out for analysis every time and they say it looks great with low metal levels. That could have changed here lately.

I have met the guy at signature last year when I went over there to get parts. I feel comfortable with him and if it needs overhaul I will probably get them to do it. I have flown 2 flight school planes with their rebuilt motors in them. They fly everyday and I trust them so far.

Like you said I do not want to fresh cylinders on it and have the cam going away. I will wind up pulling at least one cyl to get a good look at the cam. Does it matter which cyl?

I forgot about all the changes needed with motor swap. I am not lusting after a 180 conversion and the extra gas that goes with it especially since I do not have extended range fuel tanks.

My motor has a power flow exhaust, hi flow air filter and runs strong and fast, not looking for a 180 in this plane. Definitely 160hp though.
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#399784 - 12/26/19 02:28 PM Re: Where to buy cylinders? [Re: Challenger1]
magman Online   content
Gold Pilot

Registered: 10/10/12
Posts: 1380
Loc: buffalo NY
If you pull 1 Cyl you will see 1/2 of the Cam.

Pulling Lifters allows you to see ALL.

Do you know what Cylinder is fouling?

If you do not have a monitor system:

It WILL be lower plug.

Meth 1 Pull all lower & see

Meth 2 Start Engine 7 IMMEDIATELY switch to Bad Mag.

Run 30 secs.

Exhaust stack will be cold on "Bad".

Coincidentally; I also worked for GE.

Schenectady Flight Test Center ---long time ago.

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#399785 - 12/26/19 04:39 PM Re: Where to buy cylinders? [Re: magman]
Challenger1 Online   content
Gold Pilot

Registered: 03/23/16
Posts: 1947
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
Originally Posted By: magman
If you pull 1 Cyl you will see 1/2 of the Cam.

Pulling Lifters allows you to see ALL.

Do you know what Cylinder is fouling?

If you do not have a monitor system:

It WILL be lower plug.

Meth 1 Pull all lower & see

Meth 2 Start Engine 7 IMMEDIATELY switch to Bad Mag.

Run 30 secs.

Exhaust stack will be cold on "Bad".

Coincidentally; I also worked for GE.

Schenectady Flight Test Center ---long time ago.



Thanks
I know which cly #2 and it is a lower that is oil fouling. I have kept a close eye on the whole plane since I started flying it almost 2 years ago. I have flown it 345 hours in less than 2 years. I feel I know it well and could tell this has been coming on for 6 months now. I have done 99% of the maintance since I started flying it before even before I owned it.

I keep very accurate logs of every flight.

I have been hanging on to ensure I got my instrument rating before dealing with the motor.

It has been a little stressful while I was training in it. But now I have time for a overhaul if that is what is needed. I have some money set aside for this day.

How can I look at the cam with out pulling clys? Through the oil drain plug?
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#399789 - 12/26/19 07:32 PM Re: Where to buy cylinders? [Re: Challenger1]
Challenger1 Online   content
Gold Pilot

Registered: 03/23/16
Posts: 1947
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
I put it back together after work. My co pilot(dog) and I flew it tonight for 1.1 hours. Pretty windy at 3000í but no turbulence. 4 knots on the ground and 25kts @3000. Still not a bad night to fly as long as it is north to south. Lol I was hauling azz going East! But have to go west to get home .


Edited by Challenger1 (12/26/19 07:37 PM)
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#399790 - 12/26/19 07:53 PM Re: Where to buy cylinders? [Re: Challenger1]
Joeman434 Online   content
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 02/19/14
Posts: 6780
Loc: Ocala, Florida
If the cam checks out, just do a top overhaul and run the engine out.
_________________________
Do it right the first time.

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#399792 - 12/26/19 07:58 PM Re: Where to buy cylinders? [Re: Joeman434]
Joeman434 Online   content
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 02/19/14
Posts: 6780
Loc: Ocala, Florida
How can I look at the cam with out pulling clys? Through the oil drain plug?

Valve covers off....rockers off....pushrod tubes off and pull the lifters
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Do it right the first time.

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#399795 - 12/26/19 09:31 PM Re: Where to buy cylinders? [Re: Joeman434]
magman Online   content
Gold Pilot

Registered: 10/10/12
Posts: 1380
Loc: buffalo NY
Joe got it.

For H2AD just about only.

You can also:

Pull Upper plug on #2 & use a small light inside Plug hole.

Note Piston top for wetness & also see if there

is a "pond" of oil as you move Piston.


If Compression ( oops I think you said Leak down was

dropping) is good & no scoring you may want to

try a Fine-Wire Plug in that location as they are

more resistant to fouling.

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#399802 - 12/27/19 06:28 AM Re: Where to buy cylinders? [Re: magman]
Challenger1 Online   content
Gold Pilot

Registered: 03/23/16
Posts: 1947
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
Thank you gentleman, I will not need a valve spring compressor to remove the rocker arms...correct? Spin the motor where both valves are closed? I can check for worn valve guides at that point?

I have to remove all 8 push rods to to remove all 8 lifters so I can see all 8 cam lobes...right?

Is there any parts like o rings and gaskets I would need to put this back together that I should get ahead of time?

I will keep everything in order so it goes back together the same.

I agree Joeman, if the cam and lifters are good then I am going to do a top overhaul with overhauled clys. Much cheaper than new.

Is black moly lube good to put on the lifters/push rods when I put them back in the motor?

Any thoughts on steel or nickel plated clys?

Thanks for all the help.


Edited by Challenger1 (12/27/19 06:34 AM)
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#399808 - 12/27/19 09:31 AM Re: Where to buy cylinders? [Re: Challenger1]
magman Online   content
Gold Pilot

Registered: 10/10/12
Posts: 1380
Loc: buffalo NY
The Rocker Arms are stamped steel similar to an old Chevy.

You don't need a Spring Compressor to remove them.

Careful; there may be Shims on the bottom.

You will need the Spring Compressor to check Guides

but not CAM.

Once Rockers Off you can remove Pushrods, Tubes & Lifters.

NO MAGNET!!

I would order Rocker Cover Gaskets, Tubes O-rings & a Spring

Clip Retainer for Tubes.

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#399811 - 12/27/19 11:03 AM Re: Where to buy cylinders? [Re: magman]
Joeman434 Online   content
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 02/19/14
Posts: 6780
Loc: Ocala, Florida
You'll need:

4 LW-12272 Locks
8 LW-R-0.750-275 Seals
8 70310 Seals
4 75906 Gaskets

I wouldn't worry about putting anything but oil on the camshaft.


Edited by Joeman434 (12/27/19 11:03 AM)
_________________________
Do it right the first time.

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#399814 - 12/27/19 12:30 PM Re: Where to buy cylinders? [Re: Joeman434]
Challenger1 Online   content
Gold Pilot

Registered: 03/23/16
Posts: 1947
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
Originally Posted By: Joeman434
You'll need:

4 LW-12272 Locks
8 LW-R-0.750-275 Seals
8 70310 Seals
4 75906 Gaskets

I wouldn't worry about putting anything but oil on the camshaft.


Thanks a lot!

I found every part number and just ordered them. Really made that part of the job easy! Thanks!
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#399831 - 12/28/19 06:58 AM Re: Where to buy cylinders? [Re: Challenger1]
Joeman434 Online   content
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 02/19/14
Posts: 6780
Loc: Ocala, Florida
Don't mix up any internal parts. Lifter, pushrod, and rockers all go back exactly where they came from.
_________________________
Do it right the first time.

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#399836 - 12/28/19 07:56 AM Re: Where to buy cylinders? [Re: Joeman434]
DeputydogK9 Offline
Bronze Pilot

Registered: 12/30/15
Posts: 689
Loc: North Florida
Amen to that!

My buddy wanted to help clean the injectors in Super Decathalon. I told him to put them in the ultrasonic cleaner one at a time. He got done awful quick and I asked how - he said there was plenty of room in the cleaner for them all so he just dumped them all in at same time!! Took forever swapping them around to get the GAMI spreads back right.

Swapping internals can have much worse results. Blue tape and/or a separate plastic box for each cylinder works for me.

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#399841 - 12/28/19 09:45 AM Re: Where to buy cylinders? [Re: DeputydogK9]
Challenger1 Online   content
Gold Pilot

Registered: 03/23/16
Posts: 1947
Loc: Cincinnati, Ohio
Thanks guys for the expert advise, so lucky to have found a place that knows these planes well.

I know well to keep everything organized.

I used black moly lube on valve train parts on my 10000rpm racing hemis, airplane engines only turn 2500, I get it now.

We took the push rods out of the hemi at the end of every day to save the titanium valve springs and have a nice custom made fixture for that.

I have rebuilt many car and truck motors over the years. Have also built a few racing engines from scratch. We(7 of us) raced a top alcohol dragster on the NHRA tour and have some cool custom built organizing fixtures for keeping engine parts in order. We took the engine pretty far apart after every run. New upper rod bearings, spark plugs, oil, clutch disc and more after every run. I tuned the engine off of the upper rod bearings and spark plugs so my guys had the appropriate fixture to put them in so I could tune off of them.

Not sure if I can use any of that with this plane? I will see.

I have thousands of pictures of all this stuff but photobucket has been messed up for a week now. It feels like it makes for some boring posts without pictures!

Thanks again.

Look at that, photobucket is halfway working. Chris the blond haired kid was my clutch guy, he already had the clutch out in this picture. Scott is pulling the pan to change the upper rod bearings. And that is me doing the leak down. See the leak down tester built into my tool tray on top of the car? We did all this in 90 minutes. Lot's of aircraft stuff on this car.





Edited by Challenger1 (12/28/19 10:05 AM)
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#399842 - 12/28/19 10:04 AM Re: Where to buy cylinders? [Re: Challenger1]
magman Online   content
Gold Pilot

Registered: 10/10/12
Posts: 1380
Loc: buffalo NY
I've worked with many Car Guys over the years.

It's important to realize that this is DIFFERENT and

using Auto Techniques is not "Better".

There is a Manual for the Engine that wants smudge marks.

The folks I've worked with that went well use it.

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