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Topic Options
#44287 - 08/07/11 12:10 AM Calling all aerodynamics engineers --- WINGLETS for us
OldCrow Offline
Club Sponsor
Silver Pilot

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 881
Loc: STS, CA, USA

ari-wingjets
http://ari-wingjets.com/ari-c172-wingJets.pdf

what do we think ?????
_________________________
Another day in paradise
1969 172k AirPlains 180hp

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#44305 - 08/07/11 09:36 AM Re: Calling all aerodynamics engineers --- WINGLETS for us [Re: OldCrow]
wrecksum Offline
SVP Public Relations
Platinum Pilot

Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 2704
Loc: Dominican Republic
I thought it looked quite convincing until I read the bit about the "Lower departure noise footprint" for a 172.

Difficult to see how an aerodynamic modification can reduce CO2 emissions as well.

Why don't Cessna fit them then?

They look cute and up-to-date but it's probably 'Snake Oil'.
Maybe if they come out with some performance data we could look at it could be credible but the wingtip vortex effect and tip loss at the low speeds we fly can't be that great.

If they're free I'll fit them to try!

"WingJets™ utilise vectored/accelerated airflow which
accomplish three important design aims:
 The capture of lower to upper wingtip spanwise
airflow migration into an irrotational streamline
 Turning the upper wing airflow
 Self cancelling the wingtip loading – meaning that
no wing spar strengthening is required"

Anyone know what this means in real English?
_________________________
A person without a sense of humour is like a wagon without springs.It's jolted by every pebble in the road.

Cessna 172, C172, C-172, Cessna Skyhawk fan.
www.cessna172club.com

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#44327 - 08/07/11 06:00 PM Re: Calling all aerodynamics engineers --- WINGLETS for us [Re: wrecksum]
XP Driver Offline
Club Sponsor
Gold Pilot

Registered: 01/08/11
Posts: 2120
Loc: Fairfax, Virginia
Hey, if they work on a 777 how could they hurt a 172? I'll take 2 please.
_________________________


Once you go XP you never go back!

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#44357 - 08/07/11 10:56 PM Re: Calling all aerodynamics engineers --- WINGLETS for us [Re: XP Driver]
Jim Williams Offline
Second in Command

Registered: 05/06/10
Posts: 158
Loc: Utah, USA
Don't waste your money. Wing tip vortecs will go away when you'll be able to lift yourself by your own boot straps.

Jim Williams

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#44401 - 08/08/11 10:53 AM Re: Calling all aerodynamics engineers --- WINGLETS for us [Re: Jim Williams]
IDontFly Offline
Bronze Pilot

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 731
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
There are lots of things a 777 uses that could seriously hurt a 172 - for example, the engines.

And they look like another thing to get in the way when cleaning the snow off the bird.

Somebody, CPA or Aviation Consumer, will test them and we'll know if they work. Meantime it says they will be FAA approved, which is not all the same as that they are FAA approved.

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#44407 - 08/08/11 12:13 PM Re: Calling all aerodynamics engineers --- WINGLETS for us [Re: IDontFly]
XP Driver Offline
Club Sponsor
Gold Pilot

Registered: 01/08/11
Posts: 2120
Loc: Fairfax, Virginia
Oh come on, I was just kidding around.
_________________________


Once you go XP you never go back!

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#44413 - 08/08/11 02:16 PM Re: Calling all aerodynamics engineers --- WINGLETS for us [Re: XP Driver]
Cessna Dude Offline
Diamond Pilot

Registered: 10/21/09
Posts: 6628
Loc: San Antonio, TX
Hey you're a fuel injected, constant speed prop kinda guy! How were we to know? smile
_________________________
Due to certain economic uncertainty, the light at the end of the tunnel has been turned off until further notice.
Cessna 172, C172, C-172, Cessna Skyhawk fan.
www.cessna172club.com



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#44421 - 08/08/11 04:00 PM Re: Calling all aerodynamics engineers --- WINGLETS for us [Re: Cessna Dude]
IDontFly Offline
Bronze Pilot

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 731
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
I was kidding too - The claims remind me of the gadgets that make your car get incredible mileage by squirting in water that used to be sold in comic books and on late night TV.

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#44527 - 08/09/11 12:43 PM Re: Calling all aerodynamics engineers --- WINGLETS for us [Re: IDontFly]
IDontFly Offline
Bronze Pilot

Registered: 06/22/10
Posts: 731
Loc: Massachusetts, USA
According to Bill Thompson, who headed Cessna's Flight test Division, Cessna tried various wing tips. They didn't get any improvement until they tried something that drooped about two feet.

I remain skeptical (but I would be happy to see test results that show it works).

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#44535 - 08/09/11 02:29 PM Re: Calling all aerodynamics engineers --- WINGLETS for us [Re: IDontFly]
Propduster Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 08/30/10
Posts: 1063
Loc: Nova Scotia, Canada
A lot of impressive claims. However, I'm sure they forgot the most relevant one:

- reduces wing loading by removing heavy cash from owner's wallet.

Rick
_________________________
1963 Cessna 172D C-FPEC

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#44601 - 08/10/11 08:38 AM Re: Calling all aerodynamics engineers --- WINGLETS for us [Re: Propduster]
kiloindiapapa Offline
Second in Command

Registered: 01/25/10
Posts: 140
Loc: Saskatchewan
Id be more interested in these tips. I have a buddy who home builds and he like them. I would like to try them.


http://metcoaire.com/products/product_cessna.shtml
_________________________
Spend money on an airplane or a house?....You can sleep in your plane but you cant fly your house.

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#44606 - 08/10/11 09:32 AM Re: Calling all aerodynamics engineers --- WINGLETS for us [Re: kiloindiapapa]
Ward Holbrook Offline
Gold Pilot

Registered: 03/26/10
Posts: 2173
Loc: Carpinteria CA
Originally Posted By: kiloindiapapa
Id be more interested in these tips. I have a buddy who home builds and he like them. I would like to try them.
http://metcoaire.com/products/product_cessna.shtml

If you need new wingtips and if you like the way they look then go for it. However, I wouldn't believe any of their performance claims - like all aircraft modification performance claims, they may or may not be realized.

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#44615 - 08/10/11 10:08 AM Re: Calling all aerodynamics engineers --- WINGLETS for us [Re: Ward Holbrook]
kiloindiapapa Offline
Second in Command

Registered: 01/25/10
Posts: 140
Loc: Saskatchewan
100 day 100% money back garuantee. Tested and used by the US government. Thats enough to cause for a serious look.

My buddy changed out his tips on his glass air for these and saw gains overand above what the company claims. Lower cost than a set of vortex generators (with money back gaurantee) that claim the same improvements, plus a huge safety factor in the lower stall speed. I hope to try them out in the future.
_________________________
Spend money on an airplane or a house?....You can sleep in your plane but you cant fly your house.

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#45219 - 08/15/11 04:38 PM Re: Calling all aerodynamics engineers --- WINGLETS for us [Re: kiloindiapapa]
malte Offline
Second in Command

Registered: 06/05/11
Posts: 175
Loc: Aachen / Germany
Well, 15% fuel save sounds rather phony to me. And this is why:

Let us assume, a 15% save in drag would result in a 15% fuel save. Winglets do their trick at the induced drag of the wing. The induced drag makes about 35% of the total drag of an airplane. This would result in a 42% reduction of induced drag with these wing tips. Even more considering the fact, that fuel burn is not linear to the induced drag.

Happy flying!

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#48371 - 09/16/11 10:47 PM Re: Calling all aerodynamics engineers --- WINGLETS for us [Re: malte]
Nick Offline
New Member

Registered: 12/11/10
Posts: 1
Loc: OJC
I don't recall the source, however, when researching different wing tip designs and winglets for a friends RV7, we found that winglets like you see on jets are useless until into a higher mach than any prop will ever reach. FWIW.
_________________________

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#48379 - 09/17/11 12:01 AM Re: Calling all aerodynamics engineers --- WINGLETS for us [Re: Nick]
wrecksum Offline
SVP Public Relations
Platinum Pilot

Registered: 09/26/10
Posts: 2704
Loc: Dominican Republic
The last time I got my 172 to .79 Mach I did notice a slight reversal of control command..

I'm cheating really!
It was in a dive.
Ha!
_________________________
A person without a sense of humour is like a wagon without springs.It's jolted by every pebble in the road.

Cessna 172, C172, C-172, Cessna Skyhawk fan.
www.cessna172club.com

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#49904 - 09/27/11 07:07 AM Re: Calling all aerodynamics engineers --- WINGLETS for us [Re: wrecksum]
DDA737 Offline
Pilot in Command

Registered: 09/15/11
Posts: 265
Loc: Keller, TX
Originally Posted By: wrecksum
I thought it looked quite convincing until I read the bit about the "Lower departure noise footprint" for a 172.

Difficult to see how an aerodynamic modification can reduce CO2 emissions as well.

Why don't Cessna fit them then?

They look cute and up-to-date but it's probably 'Snake Oil'.
Maybe if they come out with some performance data we could look at it could be credible but the wingtip vortex effect and tip loss at the low speeds we fly can't be that great.

If they're free I'll fit them to try!

"WingJets™ utilise vectored/accelerated airflow which
accomplish three important design aims:
 The capture of lower to upper wingtip spanwise
airflow migration into an irrotational streamline
 Turning the upper wing airflow
 Self cancelling the wingtip loading – meaning that
no wing spar strengthening is required"

Anyone know what this means in real English?


It means your wallet will be lighter so you can stop calling ATC with "Cessna Heavy (N)XXXXX"
_________________________
Owner N4461L 1966 C-172G

ATP, Capt. MD-80, American Airlines

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#53587 - 10/23/11 04:43 AM Re: Calling all aerodynamics engineers --- WINGLETS for us [Re: DDA737]
JustLikeYou Offline
Pilot in Command

Registered: 07/21/11
Posts: 268
Loc: Americas
Just what I was told and read in a few books on aerodynamics. Just remember that I tried to be accurate. If I failed then I apologize for not remembering after so many years.

At low airspeeds and short stubby, rectangle wings like the 172, any flight characteristic improvements are over ridden by induced and parasitic drag by adding winglets. My Diamant glider was used as a flight test bed for winglet designs. The airfoil is a modified Wortmann section, FX 62-K-153m. None of the polars changed by any significant amount.

Drooping wing tips on the other hand act like a wing extension and improves lift and stall characteristics.

I would have to research these techniques again after doing so 20+ years ago.

I take no responsibility for the accuracy of any of this information.
_________________________
When science finally locates the center of the universe, some people will be surprised to learn they're not it.
— Anonymous


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#53589 - 10/23/11 05:25 AM Re: Calling all aerodynamics engineers --- WINGLETS for us [Re: JustLikeYou]
JustLikeYou Offline
Pilot in Command

Registered: 07/21/11
Posts: 268
Loc: Americas
I will give it a shot.

"WingJets™ utilise vectored/accelerated airflow which
accomplish three important design aims:
 The capture of lower to upper wingtip spanwise
airflow migration into an irrotational streamline
 Turning the upper wing airflow
 Self canceling the wingtip loading – meaning that
no wing spar strengthening is required"

WingJets design aims (design goals):
Vectored airflow means the direction of airflow.
Accelerated airflow and other airflows are a dependent factor of the airfoil design.

Accomplished by:
1. Capturing (directing or collecting) both the lower and upper span wise (over the length of the airfoil, lateral airflow) migration into an irrotational (is this a word?) streamline (going forth into one airflow that causes the airflow not to turn into a vortex).
2. Turning the upper wing airflow (the upper wing airflow is doing a lot of things depending on where on the airfoil it is being looked at so I do not have enough information to make a guess).
3. Self canceling the wingtip loading – meaning that no wing spar strengthening is required (if this is a true statement then what they are saying is true but on a rectangle airfoil anything added to the wing tip can weigh enough to cause the spar not to be able to handle the new load).

172 airspeeds are to slow to be of any major factor (for what I remember).

FAA certification doesn't always mean something works as advertised they are only certifying that the product will not cause any harm and we don't know what is actually being certified without some research.

SNAKE OIL without accredited test data to support their claims.

I did my best.


Edited by Jon Heckendorf (10/23/11 05:28 AM)
_________________________
When science finally locates the center of the universe, some people will be surprised to learn they're not it.
— Anonymous


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#53590 - 10/23/11 05:51 AM Re: Calling all aerodynamics engineers --- WINGLETS for us [Re: JustLikeYou]
JustLikeYou Offline
Pilot in Command

Registered: 07/21/11
Posts: 268
Loc: Americas
I went to ARI's website and a few things that they are claiming (and not claiming) I don't believe to be true or at least a stretch of the truth.

For one, I am already saving on fuel costs on my descent by reducing power and putting the nose down a bit.

Go see their technical data. Looks too good to be true.

Someone who has the money and time to invest in installing these wingtips go buy a pair and let the rest of us know if you got a good deal or not.


Edited by Jon Heckendorf (10/23/11 05:58 AM)
_________________________
When science finally locates the center of the universe, some people will be surprised to learn they're not it.
— Anonymous


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#53599 - 10/23/11 10:30 AM Re: Calling all aerodynamics engineers --- WINGLETS for us [Re: JustLikeYou]
bnt1983 Offline
Safety Pilot

Registered: 03/26/11
Posts: 87
Loc: USA
I see a lot of winglet installs on Falcon and Hawker jets at my work. They install a TON of reinforcment into the wings to do these mods. The winglets for a Falcon 900 that we just did weigh 125 pounds each. Owners love them.

C-172, NO way in heck would I drop $2000 to save 3% fuel. WASTE of time & money. Put the money in the gas tank and enjoy.

My dad wasn't even happy with the power flow ehaust on the 68 (150hp) Cardinal in the picture. I can't wait to see what the compressions are at annual, they may be a lil low. I want to install a regular paper airfilter and see if there is a performance difference with the power flow installed.


Edited by bnt1983 (10/23/11 10:35 AM)

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#53647 - 10/23/11 08:58 PM Re: Calling all aerodynamics engineers --- WINGLETS for us [Re: bnt1983]
steve71e Offline
Second in Command

Registered: 02/22/10
Posts: 172
Loc: Atlanta, Ga
Had the STOL droop tips on mine. Off the ground quicker and slower stall. Slower cruise speed too. Have the RMD tips with landing lights now. about 3 to 4 kts faster. Be advised !! per the link it says "...will be FAA approved". That does not mean STC'd. You will still need a 337 and find a FED to sign off on a "Field Approval" if not STC'd.
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